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D&D 5E Does the Artificer Suck?

NotAYakk

Legend
Hat of disguise & weapon of warning along with many other things are also on that same table.
Yes, the weapon of warning; immunity to surprise, advantage on initiative (worth more in most fights than +1 to hit/damage), and also penetrates "resist nonmagical BPS".

Hat of Disguise, which (barring a high magic world where there is constant truesight/detect magic spam) impersonate almost anyone, carry weapons almost anywhere, etc. You can step into a corner and come out someone else, all day long.

Pretty major magical power. Even half decent for combat; if you are roughly the same size as your foes, you can mimic any one of them and pull off a pretty good ambush.

I can see how the +1 greatsword is way less impactful. It is mostly just a slightly sharper sword. I mean, it does swing damage and accuracy a bit, and in the hands of a GWM -5/+10 that bonus accuracy can be big.

Honestly, to me, the main advantage of +1 weapons is that they don't require an attunement slot. At low levels this doesn't matter; eventually, running out of attunement slots isn't all that rare in most games.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
As for the spell scrolls themselves, a handful of them really do go a long way.

Again, I haven't seem much call to make 1st level spells into scrolls. And the character's 8th level, so he's two levels away from getting that time and cost reduction, so each 2nd level scroll would cost him 250 gp, which ain't peanuts.
 

Again, I haven't seem much call to make 1st level spells into scrolls. And the character's 8th level, so he's two levels away from getting that time and cost reduction, so each 2nd level scroll would cost him 250 gp, which ain't peanuts.
shield and AE are the big ones once you get to 10. i see you tend to run with a crossbow so having the free hand for scroll not even a big deal.

Second level scrolls are a bigger investment so spells that you doubt you ever need but really need them when you need them, like seeing invisibility and rope trick, really shine here.

Lv eight is a rough spot for the artificer but every level following is amazing.
 


As long as one of his infusions is his sword (or shield) he can cast most spells on his list with his hands full.

The only one he cant cast is Shield and he should have Warcaster to be able to pop that off.
Actually, using the updated Artificer from Tasha's, all Artificer spells have Material components, so a Sword and Board Battle Smith can cast Shield as long as they're holding an infused item.
 

shield and AE are the big ones once you get to 10. i see you tend to run with a crossbow so having the free hand for scroll not even a big deal.

Second level scrolls are a bigger investment so spells that you doubt you ever need but really need them when you need them, like seeing invisibility and rope trick, really shine here.

Lv eight is a rough spot for the artificer but every level following is amazing.
I can't see Shield and Absorb elements being useful as scrolls, unless you also have a houserule in place to change the activation time into a reaction as the spells are. Scrolls take an action to use, and both of those spells lose a lot of usefulness if you can't use them reactively.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I can't see Shield and Absorb elements being useful as scrolls, unless you also have a houserule in place to change the activation time into a reaction as the spells are. Scrolls take an action to use, and both of those spells lose a lot of usefulness if you can't use them reactively.
Huh? "Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal Casting Time".
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Huh? "Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal Casting Time".
Not that it looks like
1611027453922.png
 

So, @Zardnaar, it appears that the problems have been pointed out. You were a bit too generous with magic items, made some mistakes with spellcasting rules, forgot to keep track of spell slots, and rolled for stats.

The last two issues are the biggest problems. I'm generous with giving magic items in my campaigns, even in the ones with Artificers. I've also made mistakes with the casting rules, which makes minor issues but doesn't ruin the game, IMO.

However, if your players forget how to (accurately) keep track of spell slots, that will create major complications in the game, especially with paladins. I cannot stress this enough. If a paladin uses a spell slot to Misty Step, they can't use that spell slot to Divine Smite.

Additionally, if you use rolled stats, you are not allowed to complain about balance differences between characters. That is the whole point in playing with rolling for stats. If you use 4d6-lowest or any other stat-rolling system, you have to be prepared to have characters with vastly different power ranges. If you want the characters to be balanced amongst each other, use Point Buy/Standard Array.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Not that it looks like (DMG139)
The DMG and the Basic rules are in conflict on this point.

Basic Rules (Pg 169 in the 2018 version), and thus D&D Beyond baseline, says it takes the spell's normal casting time. DMG pg 139 says it takes an action.

Either way, there's the matter of whether the scroll is in hand at the moment you want to use it. Just getting it out of your pack may be an action in and of itself.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
shield and AE are the big ones once you get to 10. i see you tend to run with a crossbow so having the free hand for scroll not even a big deal.

Second level scrolls are a bigger investment so spells that you doubt you ever need but really need them when you need them, like seeing invisibility and rope trick, really shine here.

Lv eight is a rough spot for the artificer but every level following is amazing.

Aren't scrolls an action to use so shield is bad to put on scrolls?
 

ModernApathy

Explorer
I've never played an artificer, so I couldn't comment on whether they suck or not.
I would say from reading the class I always thought it would be a steep learning curve for a new player compared to a lot of other classes.
 

Your assertion that the unfinished design outline is guidance not a rule is correct
There is no "unfinished design outline", and I never suggested there was. The 5e magic item rules are entirely finished, and can be summarised thus: "It is entirely up to the DM to decide how to distribute magic items". That also applies to those magic items the players craft themselves. Note that this is consistent with how all editions of D&D did it up until third.

"If you craft a magic item with a rarity of common or uncommon, it takes you a quarter of the normal time, and it costs you half as much of the usual gold" means that those elements are no longer something that can be "guidance that DMs can choose which version, or none, they want to use"
Sure they can. The DM decides on the time and cost, and then the artificer does it in a quarter of that for half the cost. That is why it is multiplicative - it works with any base value.

Whether or not it is an important ability or not depends entirely on the type of game being played. 5e deliberately avoids the kind of regimentation you seem to be looking for. In a game where the players craft a lot of magic items it's an important ability. In a game with little or no player crafting it's a ribbon, but - here is the clever bit - infused items are much more important. So it balances out.
 
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Paladin has 20 charisma, aura and uses shillelagh keyed off charisma.
There is the problem right there. Paladins are designed to be MAD as an intentional weakness. Battlesmiths are SAD as an intentional strength. The rules do not allow CHA-Shillelagh without multiclassing for a very good reason.

Overpowered paladin is obviously going to be better than a battlesmith - and any other melee character.

Or, to put it another way, does a battlesmith without it's SAD advantage suck? Then yes, if you take away a key advantage it sucks.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
There is the problem right there. Paladins are designed to be MAD as an intentional weakness. Battlesmiths are SAD as an intentional strength. The rules do not allow CHA-Shillelagh without multiclassing for a very good reason.

Overpowered paladin is obviously going to be better than a battlesmith - and any other melee character.

Or, to put it another way, does a battlesmith without it's SAD advantage suck? Then yes, if you take away a key advantage it sucks.

It's less broken than the hexblade/paladin MC.

Got it via a racial ability and it's almost as much as the race (Dragonkin) gets. They're marginally better than the dragonborn.

Otherwise he would like have hexblade/paladin plus better race.

Battlesmith also best the artificer has to offer imho. Two of the subclssses suck imho the other is ok.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
There is no "unfinished design outline", and I never suggested there was. The 5e magic item rules are entirely finished,
No, because it's guidance that DMs can choose which version, or none, they want to use. It's not rules.
So... which is it. You've argued both sides of that coin in the span of around 24hours. A design outline is a particular type of guidance for a particular purpose. Mere "guidance " is not a rule.
 

For the artifice
The class isn't weak, but it isn't OP either. You have to consider the class as a support for whatever roll might be missing in your party. This isnthe kind of class that is a good fifthwheeler in the sense that it will complement the other characters/roles quite nicely. The class ia not a full healer but it can heal, it is not a full blaster, but bot can it blast and though in hand ro hand it is a bit lacking, it does have access to melee cantrips and the pet is quite useful. The class ia almost the bard of second edition. It does not excel at anything (save one thing, thia will be addressed further down) but it is a good second everywhere.

What the class excels at is creating magical items and using them. Infusions are great and if the DM does not shut down item creation then the class is almost a must if your group is 5 or 6 characters strong.

As for scrolls.
It takes an action to use one. The DMG is quite clear on that. Yes, it means that reaction spells are almost useless on scrolls but not entirely so. Casting shield preemptively to cross a trapped room, or misty step for the same thing without using your spell slot might be good. Situational, yes, but still useful.
 

So... which is it. You've argued both sides of that coin in the span of around 24hours. A design outline is a particular type of guidance for a particular purpose. Mere "guidance " is not a rule.
I do get bored with people who think wilful misrepresentation is a legitimate form of debate.

Guidance is guidance. It is not a rule, nor is it a design outline. I have never said it was a "design outline". YOU brought up that bollocks.
 

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