D&D 5E Does the Artificer Suck?

Ashrym

Legend
To me, the words for SSI most concretely imply no PB. The user does not have proficiency with it. The only applicable modifier is as stated the creator's Int.

Note the similar language in counterspell, which many at first misinterpret.

SSI replicates a spell effect. Counterspell is an ability check. Definitely not the same thing.

The SSI doesn't make any reference to how the ability modifier is even applied if you remove the general formula so your argument seems a bit of a stretch. ;-)
 

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clearstream

(He, Him)
SSI replicates a spell effect. Counterspell is an ability check. Definitely not the same thing.

The SSI doesn't make any reference to how the ability modifier is even applied if you remove the general formula so your argument seems a bit of a stretch. ;-)
That's right, it doesn't. Refer to my earlier post expressing disappointment with the design work. SSI joins an ignoble list of game rules that contain lacunae: incomplete as written.

I foresee errata.
 

Ashrym

Legend
That's right, it doesn't. Refer to my earlier post expressing disappointment with the design work. SSI joins an ignoble list of game rules that contain lacunae: incomplete as written.

I foresee errata.

It's not incomplete just because it didn't repeat a general rule formula that didn't need to be repeated.

It's only an issue if a person ignores that the only change to the general rule is the creature replicating the effect uses the artificer's INT in that general formula.

If that's holding you back tweet Crawford so he can add it to sage advice for you. ;-)
 

SSI replicates a spell effect. Counterspell is an ability check. Definitely not the same thing.

The SSI doesn't make any reference to how the ability modifier is even applied if you remove the general formula so your argument seems a bit of a stretch. ;-)

It's not incomplete just because it didn't repeat a general rule formula that didn't need to be repeated.

It's only an issue if a person ignores that the only change to the general rule is the creature replicating the effect uses the artificer's INT in that general formula.

If that's holding you back tweet Crawford so he can add it to sage advice for you. ;-)
Unless you take in account that it's not casting a spell so the general formula may not apply and the item is producing the effect which also brings in the whole "who's proficiency is it anyway?" Problem even if you use the general spell casting rules.
This is why most items provide DCs that have spell effects that are not directly being cast from a creature.
 

Ashrym

Legend
Unless you take in account that it's not casting a spell so the general formula may not apply and the item is producing the effect which also brings in the whole "who's proficiency is it anyway?" Problem even if you use the general spell casting rules.
This is why most items provide DCs that have spell effects that are not directly being cast from a creature.

The same formula is used for not casting spells too. Go look at fighter attacks and DC's. :)
 

The same formula is used for not casting spells too. Go look at fighter attacks and DC's. :)
That's a subclass feature from a different class. Helps the RAI argument but as far as RAW go it doesn't apply.

For the record I use the artificer's spell casting ability feature as a whole for the SSI but that's because that is what I believe was RAI.
 

Ashrym

Legend
That's a subclass feature from a different class. Helps the RAI argument but as far as RAW go it doesn't apply.

For the record I use the artificer's spell casting ability feature as a whole for the SSI but that's because that is what I believe was RAI.

No, because every spell effect that requires a spell attack or saving throw specifies that in the spell description and would be part of the effect.

The formula given for the spell attacks and saving throws are listed in the spell casting section of the PHB.
 

No, because every spell effect that requires a spell attack or saving throw specifies that in the spell description and would be part of the effect.

The formula given for the spell attacks and saving throws are listed in the spell casting section of the PHB.
The spell casting rules in the PHB govern your spells which would excludes those rules as well if the spells are deemed to be originating from the SSI which is the base of the "it's not spell casting" ruling which has been verified by sage advice.

The only restrictions the SSI have to be activated is it needs to be held by a creature that can take an action,which the SSI feature provides if needed, and the spell effect(s) occur. The spell casting ability modifier is given but the rest is omitted which leaves room for multiple interpretations on how to fill in the blanks or if the blanks exist at all.

The SSI is an paradox of sort of you look at it without infering what they meant
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
It's not incomplete just because it didn't repeat a general rule formula that didn't need to be repeated.

It's only an issue if a person ignores that the only change to the general rule is the creature replicating the effect uses the artificer's INT in that general formula.
So far as I know, there is no general rule for spell effects produced from items. A group might feel the SSI to be similar to a ring of spell storing, which users the original caster's stats. One puzzle will be why SSI references only the artificer's ability modifier? Elsewhere, where such limited language is found, it means what it says: use only the ability modifier, not proficiency. Still, most (perhaps all?) items - from scrolls to rings to wands - that store spells that are later cast or produced from them do use values that match an original caster's stats. If there is an intended general rule, then I believe that provides relevant context.

If I understand you correctly, you believe the ability modifier is the artificer's, and that PB is going to be used, but that it is going to be the SSI's current wielder's? That doesn't match any general rule at all, not even that for a spellcaster casting their own spells. I'm trying to think of a case where a spell cast or production mixes one creature's ability modifier with another's PB... can you point to any?
 


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