D&D 5E Does "Unarmoured Defense" work with Druids who are shapechanged?

[PnPgamer]

Ah, indeed, Wisdom (and other non-physical stats) carry over into wild shape, the others don't.

Maybe that was my dms reasoning. I asked him again and he was unsure, if allow both or neither. He was on opinion that it requires testing.

 

[Klaus]

There's a debate on whether it works or not.

On the one hand, Wild Shape says you keep class features that your form is capable of using.

On the other hand, Wild Shape says it replaces your combat statistics (including AC).

Personally, I don't allow it.

 

[KarinsDad]

There's a debate on whether it works or not.

On the one hand, Wild Shape says you keep class features that your form is capable of using.

On the other hand, Wild Shape says it replaces your combat statistics (including AC).

Personally, I don't allow it.

The only way to allow both rules to work is to change the AC to the bear as per Wild Shape rule and then change that AC to that of the Monk as per class rule. There are rules for humanoid AC. 10 + Dex. Monk rule overrides that rule after the fact. The humanoid Monk moves differently than a non-monk and avoids attacks. The wild shaped druid monk moves differently than a wild shaped druid non-monk and avoids attacks.

By raw i think wildshape entry says that you dont lose any class abilities. However, this might turn druid too good in his forms, as the original intent seemingly was that they have loads of hp but very low ac. Using unarmored defense may unbalance things. I think final say is on your gaming groups dm.

Also for record, my dm disallowed monks unarmored defense, but allowed barbarian unarmored defense. (It scales within forms, and gives out 0-2 ac, while monks would give 3-5)

Personally, I think that if a player gives up a level of Druid spells and pushes back his Druid abilities by a level in order to boost his AC sometimes in wild shape, big deal. This is nowhere near the imbalance of some other combos. In the AC 11 vs. AC 13 example someone posted above, it means that 1 attack in 10 (or 1 encounter in 2 at best), this PC does not get hit when s/he would have. Nice, but it came at a cost.

5E multiclassing always comes at a cost. Our Ranger 2 / Wizard 3 cannot cast Fireball (amongst other limitations). But, he has a decent AC without casting Mage Armor, and uses decent weapons. Pros and cons.

 

[Klaus]

The only way to allow both rules to work is to change the AC to the bear as per Wild Shape rule and then change that AC to that of the Monk as per class rule.

Alternatively, you could change the AC of the humanoid form using Unarmored Defense, and then that gets overriden by the animal AC granted by Wild Shape. That rationale could go both ways. Hence "debate". My preference is to let the animal AC take precedence. Want a better AC while Wild Shaped? Cast Barkskin.

 

[KarinsDad]

Alternatively, you could change the AC of the humanoid form using Unarmored Defense, and then that gets overriden by the animal AC granted by Wild Shape. That rationale could go both ways. Hence "debate". My preference is to let the animal AC take precedence. Want a better AC while Wild Shaped? Cast Barkskin.

Yes, but then one of the rules is not actually being used. In addition, one adjudication makes sense for verisimilitude. A bear moving like a monk should be harder to hit. By not allowing the bear to move like the monk, the DM is stating that the monk abilities cannot be used in wild shape and the rules explicitly state that they can.

There are no rules that the monk AC bonus is limited to humanoid form.

 

[PnPgamer]

Wild shape does state on class features that if the form is physically able to perform them you can apply them. The question is, are all unarmored defenses hardness of the body or just the ability to dodge, and thus, is your newly assumed body capable of performing them?

 

[Klaus]

Yes, but then one of the rules is not actually being used. In addition, one adjudication makes sense for verisimilitude. A bear moving like a monk should be harder to hit. By not allowing the bear to move like the monk, the DM is stating that the monk abilities cannot be used in wild shape and the rules explicitly state that they can.

There are no rules that the monk AC bonus is limited to humanoid form.

I don't think I'd ever put "bear moving like a monk" in the same sentence as "verisimilitude".

And I'm not saying "monk abilities" cannot be used in wild shape. I'm saying "Unarmored Defense" (and, incidently, "Martial Arts") can't. The Druid/Monk is free to enjoy the benefits of Unarmored Movement, Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Ki powers, even Tongue of Sun and Moon.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think I'd ever put "bear moving like a monk" in the same sentence as "verisimilitude".

And I'm not saying "monk abilities" cannot be used in wild shape. I'm saying "Unarmored Defense" (and, incidently, "Martial Arts") can't. The Druid/Monk is free to enjoy the benefits of Unarmored Movement, Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Ki powers, even Tongue of Sun and Moon.

Yup. One person's verisimilitude is another person's "WTH?".

 

[Klaus]

Yup. One person's verisimilitude is another person's "WTH?".

Like I said, it's ultimately up to each individual table. Some (like me) won't allow it, others will go SKADOOSH!

 

[mars991370]

Wild shape does state on class features that if the form is physically able to perform them you can apply them. The question is, are all unarmored defenses hardness of the body or just the ability to dodge, and thus, is your newly assumed body capable of performing them?

I would say yes because whether you dip into monk or barbarian you are showing your character took the time to bolser their AC through natural hardiness (CON) or be able to use your wits to predict what the enemy will do and act accordingly (WIS). WIS isn't the ability to directly Dodge an attack I would say because that's DEX and that's already apart of the score. Think of it like this a monks AC is 10+ their ability to predict the attack (wis) + their ability to act on that and Dodge it (Dex). A barbarian is similar but rather than predicting they have learned to use their natural durability to shrug off blows. Druids keep their mind basically in wild shape and know their trainings so they'd still be able to act on it. It's not "moving like a monk" or whatever I've seen here because you still use the beast DEX. So really it would be a monk using their wisdom to predict the attack and using the beast Dexterity to evade it. Thematically if you had a monk druid with a WIS modifier of +5 turn into a saber toothed tiger you would see the AC jump from 12 to 17 not because they got more graceful but because they still have the same brain and trainings. So if someone rolled a 13 and that would hit a normal ST tiger but not this one because they saw that attack coming from a mile away. It's all about the story and how crafty your dm can be if they can't see how a druid monk can still predict attacks and just reposition then I could see why they wouldn't allow it but really it should be kept. An animal with a -1 DEX mod would rightfully still pull down your AC. Ultimately I agree with whoever said that if a druid wants to sacrifice their level 20 feat for druid to snag a bonus in AC they should be allowed but to each their own just thought I'd add my two cents