D&D (2024) Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?

[Charlaquin]

Starting with up to 19 AC,

Same as medium armor.

and the ability to not be dependent on weapons,

Same as a feature that says you can’t be disarmed, which as with the much maligned ranger features, is dependent on the DM to make useful.

not need to up Stength for anything , and a special bonus attack every turn...?

Same as martial weapon proficiency.

That's pretty good, and scales fast once Spell-like abilities on a Short Rest recharge come online after 1 session.

Right, but as per the subject of the thread, WotC may be overvaluing those features.

 

[Parmandur]

Same as martial weapon proficiency.

Martial weapons usually get their bonus damage from Strength, not Dexterity. That's, arguably, the core Level 1 Feature in terms of what makes a Monk different: dump Strength, pump Dex. The always on, equipment free boosts are a nice-to-have, but they also scale at higher Levels (eventually, the Martial Arts feature becomes essentially dual-wielding magical Greatswords, without any need for equipment). The core Class feature is the Spell-like abilities, which again, come online after one session of play when Level 2 is reached.

 

[Mistwell]

I seriously think there is a designer who had a monk player stun-lock their Big Bad Guy and freaked out about it claiming they were overpowered.

They're badly underpowered but WOTC seems to act like they're overpowered. I can't think of another explanation.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, yes, they are good, and require zero prep and cannot be taken away.ar or of Shadows is, in fact, great, same as any other Invocatoionthat turns a Level 1 Spell into an at-will. The Monk AC ability is, first, better than the Level 1 Spell, and secondly, always on is better than at-will. I'm not saying thst it is "OP," but it is valuable.

Stuff like this is good, not great. There’s a reason that flyers in MotM have more features than just flight and a claw attack.

You see, that's where I disagree, because I am sure they have specific mathematical formulas for figuring out the value of any AC or damage ability.

I am too. And it’s incorrect.

In fact, using your logic about the monk as half caster, they’ve tacitly admitted that their calculation was wrong when they reduced the cost of the 4elements monk’s abilities to match other subclasses, and said explicitly in the video about the playtest document that they did so because they were too costly.

Martial weapons usually get their bonus damage from Strength, not Dexterity.

This is a huge stretch. Monks would be using Dex if they just had martial weapon proficiency and no heavy armor or shields, just like the rogue.

That's, arguably, the core Level 1 Feature in terms of what makes a Monk different: dump Strength, pump Dex. The always on, equipment free boosts are a nice-to-have, but they also scale at higher Levels. The core Class feature is the Spell-like abilities, which again, come online after one session of play when Level 2 is reached.

And they’re all overvalued. I don’t understand why you keep restating what features the class has. We know, and we are discussing the idea that they are being overvalued by the designers.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I seriously think there is a designer who had a monk player stun-lock their Big Bad Guy and freaked out about it claiming they were overpowered.

They're badly underpowered but WOTC seems to act like they're overpowered. I can't think of another explanation.

The OP provides a more reasonable explanation.

 

[Parmandur]

And they’re all overvalued. I don’t understand why you keep restating what features the class has. We know, and we are discussing the idea that they are being overvalued by the designers.

I disagree that they are overvalued, and going over what the features are seems reasonable in that context of disagreement.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I disagree that they are overvalued, and going over what the features are seems reasonable in that context of disagreement.

Alright. We probably won’t shift position much on it.

Even if we assume your starting position, that still leaves the monk just getting abilities at level 1 that almost never come up. Whether you value those highly or not, they shouldn’t be your whole level 1.

 

[shadowoflameth]

Starting with up to 19 AC, and the ability to not be dependent on weapons, not need to up Stength for anything , and a special bonus attack every turn...? That's pretty good, and scales fast once Spell-like abilities on a Short Rest recharge come online after 1 session.

But who starts with a 19 AC in any class? If you have a 20 Dex and an 18 Wis. sure, but what game allows that at 1st level? and just what are you seeing scaling fast? Your martial arts die is a d4 at 1st. That doesn't scale damage to d8 with unarmed strike until 11th level and you could get that with a fighting style or a feat at 1st. If you start with 16 Dex and 16 Wis. and you use all your ASIs to boost those, you'll have your 19 AC by 12th. So suppose your 12th and did this, at 12th you can attack 4 times spending a Ki point and each does 1d8+4 with +8 to hit. If you have 18 Dex and 20 Wis. The Save on your Stunning Strike is 17. You have mediocre HP because your Con may be 13 so average 63hp. Compare to a fighter with the same standard array who makes his Str 20, Con 18 and takes the Unarmed Fighting Style at 1st level. He does 1d8+5 (doing d8s with them from the start) with +9 to hit at 12th; attacks three times, or six if he action surges and has AC 20 with mundane armor and a shield. He has 114hp. He doesn't have Stunning Strike but he has more ASIs so he could have 20 and 20 by this level or have added a feat.

 

[Parmandur]

Alright. We probably won’t shift position much on it.

Probably not: I had just gone back to review to see if I was misremembering and that the Monk's abilities may be overvalued because the question came up. My review suggests that, no, they are not overvalued, but folks can draw their own conclusions.

 

[Parmandur]

But who starts with a 19 AC in any class? If you have a 20 Dex and an 18 Wis. sure, but what game allows that at 1st level?

Well, sure, that's an outer, but any table that uses rolled stats (i.e., most ta les) it is a possibility. Certainly any Monk will want to put their best stats in wis and Dex for a number of reasons, anyways. Even using the standard array, if one's table allows thst (I have no experience with array or point buy in action, myself), a 16 in both is the obvious play to make.