D&D 5E Does Your DM Let Everyone Start With A Feat?

[Peter BOSCO'S]

I DM. I added in a free Feat, but at L6, not at L1, because I was tired of PC's not taking their ASI's as ASI's, being underoptimized, and then blaming me when fights were too tough. At L1 all I gave them was an extra Tool (or Language) Proficiency.

 

[Maxperson]

But it's not just a gift, is it?

It would be like giving someone a Steam gift card, but timing it so that card only arrives after the seasonal sale ends, because you don't actually want the person to buy any of the games currently on sale, and the gift card won't cover those games when at full price. Sure, it's still a gift. It's also manipulative.

Edit: And to look at your specific example, no, that's not at all my thought process here. Instead it's, "Oh, you waited until after I took Great Weapon Fighting style to give me my pick of magic weapons where none of them are two-handed. And you did so specifically so that I wouldn't be thinking too much about optimization. Alright."

It is just a gift. If a grateful Genie offered each PC the ability to do one of 4 things(feats) as a reward, I don't think we'd be hearing this complaint. It's just a gift/reward/extra.

 

[Maxperson]

I think it’s best summed up not as ‘i don’t get to play the character i was going to play’ but rather ‘if i had known i was going to get this my entire character might have been developed in a different direction than what it was and incorporated it better’

EDIT: going back to the magic weapon comparison it’s like If i had known i was going to get this +1 dagger after I made my character i probably would’ve made a rogue who could’ve benefited from it more rather than my wizard who doesn’t want to touch melee range with a 10-foot pole.

Cool. So then you don't want any treasure after character creation, because if you'd known you'd have gotten those items, you'd have made a different character?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I guess I want to avoid the former, but I don't think the latter is a problem? Seems like it would be a similar situation to the GWF barbarian finding a really cool flaming longsword in a treasure hoard. Not every piece of treasure is going to be 100% optimal for every character in the group, right?

And for me, I find such things...well, pretty frustrating. Because there's the clear implication "you should use this, I gave it to you, it's for you to have fun with, why aren't you using it?" But if you have a Barbarian with GWF...that flaming longsword may not even outpace the mundane greatsword!* Like, it's seriously in a spot where sticking with the sword you already have may be simply better. And since it's very unlikely that no one else in the party cares about flaming longswords...it's gonna go to someone else, even if it's been six months since I last got anything neat.

*Greatsword with GWF (presumably acquired via feat, since Barbarians don't get fighting styles normally) is 8.33 damage, vs. 5.5 average damage for a longsword wielded two-handed. Static bonuses are the same, so only the weapon + amount and fire damage will matter. Should Great Weapon Master apply, however...it's no contest, the greatsword is better. Even a flame tongue longsword--which, oddly, has no hit bonus!--can't match a baseline of 18.33 damage per hit before Rage/Str bonus; the best it can do is 1d10+2d6 = 5.5+7 = 12.5. Sure, it hits more often, but with Rage giving advantage on attacks....

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Cool. So then you don't want any treasure after character creation, because if you'd known you'd have gotten those items, you'd have made a different character?

Firstly: Your snide tone isn't helpful. At all. It is, in fact, very likely to result in cross words exchanged. Being respectful of others is in the rules. Maybe give it a shot, instead of doing what you did here.

Secondly: That's quite different, though (as noted above) yeah, sometimes getting whatever random (or, often, """random,""" because the DM feels like putting it in there) treasure...doesn't really do anything for me and I won't really hold onto it. Because it's simply not as good as sticking with what I've got. Even though the thing in question, like a flame tongue longsword, is a "major tier" "rare" item worth (apparently) 4000 gp, it literally can be inferior to a perfectly mundane greatsword. I don't see this as being ungrateful, I see it as being pragmatic; let someone else have the cool sword, even though it'll probably be super obvious that it was intended for my Barbarian (or whatever), because it just doesn't do anything for me.

I welcome some amount of surprise. Again, your snide, snippy attitude doesn't reflect well on your point here, which is (I presume) that you think people should be more open to spontaneity and unexpected results. But there's a pretty high likelihood I'm going to pass on items that aren't actually worthwhile for the kind of training my character has gone through. Like I said, I don't see that as being ungrateful or petulant, I see it as a matter of pragmatism: if the item is, in fact, a reduction in utility for me, it not only can but should go to someone else for whom it will have positive utility, even if that utility is marginal.

Now, if you'd like to actually have a conversation instead of being mocking and insincere, that could actually be interesting.

 

[Maxperson]

Firstly: Your snide tone isn't helpful. At all. It is, in fact, very likely to result in cross words exchanged. Being respectful of others is in the rules. Maybe give it a shot, instead of doing what you did here.

Secondly: That's quite different, though (as noted above) yeah, sometimes getting whatever random (or, often, """random,""" because the DM feels like putting it in there) treasure...doesn't really do anything for me and I won't really hold onto it. Because it's simply not as good as sticking with what I've got. Even though the thing in question, like a flame tongue longsword, is a "major tier" "rare" item worth (apparently) 4000 gp, it literally can be inferior to a perfectly mundane greatsword. I don't see this as being ungrateful, I see it as being pragmatic; let someone else have the cool sword, even though it'll probably be super obvious that it was intended for my Barbarian (or whatever), because it just doesn't do anything for me.

I welcome some amount of surprise. Again, your snide, snippy attitude doesn't reflect well on your point here, which is (I presume) that you think people should be more open to spontaneity and unexpected results. But there's a pretty high likelihood I'm going to pass on items that aren't actually worthwhile for the kind of training my character has gone through. Like I said, I don't see that as being ungrateful or petulant, I see it as a matter of pragmatism: if the item is, in fact, a reduction in utility for me, it not only can but should go to someone else for whom it will have positive utility, even if that utility is marginal.

Now, if you'd like to actually have a conversation instead of being mocking and insincere, that could actually be interesting.

I apologize for the tone.

I am curious, though, about the genie example. Suppose the first thing the characters did at 1st level involved freeing a genie. As a reward, the genie granted the rogue his choice of A, B, C or D feats, the fighter his choice of E, F, G or H feats, the cleric his choice of I, J, K or L feats, and the wizard his choice of M, N, O or P feats. Would you have the same outlook under those circumstances?

 

[CleverNickName]

And for me, I find such things...well, pretty frustrating. Because there's the clear implication "you should use this, I gave it to you, it's for you to have fun with, why aren't you using it?" But if you have a Barbarian with GWF...that flaming longsword may not even outpace the mundane greatsword!* Like, it's seriously in a spot where sticking with the sword you already have may be simply better. And since it's very unlikely that no one else in the party cares about flaming longswords...it's gonna go to someone else, even if it's been six months since I last got anything neat.

...but a barbarian can use a flaming longsword, right? They're just choosing not to because it's not optimal.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I apologize for the tone.

I am curious, though, about the genie example. Suppose the first thing the characters did at 1st level involved freeing a genie. As a reward, the genie granted his choice of A, B, C or D feats, the fighter his choice of E, F, G or H feats, the cleric his choice of I, J, K or L feats, and the wizard his choice of M, N, O or P feats. Would you have the same outlook under those circumstances?

Hard to say, a lot would depend on context, but probably not? That sounds, to me, like a reward after a significant adventure, even if it's the party's first, and there's no impetus (as noted above) to prevent making certain kinds of disapproved choices. It instead feels (because much of this is an emotional response, not a logical one) like a genie doing what he or she can within the scope of her or his abilities.

Might be worth considering as an alternate approach for @CleverNickName. Present it as a reward with a finite list of feats, perhaps ones you've chosen to be cool/flavorful/relevant for each character without being strictly powerful. I still personally don't care for the "and now I have prevented them from optimizing" undertone, but that would at least feel more like an earned reward rather than the rather more negative feeling I get from only being given a feat after Session 1 specifically to circumvent certain kinds of player choices.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

...but a barbarian can use a flaming longsword, right? They're just choosing not to because it's not optimal.

It's not just not optimal. It's literally less good. That's my point. Why would you choose to use something that is (at least for some example situations) actually worse?

 

[Maxperson]

It's not just not optimal. It's literally less good. That's my point. Why would you choose to use something that is (at least for some example situations) actually worse?

Because for other example situations it's very much better. If your greatsword is normal, that flaming sword is going to be doing more damage to creatures that need to be hit by magic weapons to take full damage.