D&D General Doing Tragedy in D&D

Part of what this means to me is that the tragic arc needs to still be an arc of D&D-scale power. It's not that Juliet drinks poison, it's that Juliet makes a pact with Nerull and rises as a mindless zombie for her former love to slay or something. Mere murder is insufficient!

It also means the scale of tragedy might be more vast. At 15th level, you're dealing with world-shaking threats. Juliet doesn't just rise as a zombie, she dooms the entire world to rise as zombies. Our Walter White commits war crimes. Our Citizen Kane isolates itself from the entire multiverse and can't be saved when it's clear this is killing the world.
I guess that's my point. The system is not helping you here. Not only do you have the difficulty of getting the tragedy in the first place, but, also, you have to fight the system which means that your tragedy can't be just an overzealous police officer but it has to be a virtual god persecuting our Jean Valjean.

This is going to be a seriously uphill battle the whole way along. I'm just not really sure that insisting on using D&D is the right way to go here.
 

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For some genres, D&D just isn't good fit. Is it technically doable? Sure, pretty much anything is technically doable in D&D. But like @Hussar said, for some genres you are actively fighting system. I would argue that for the amount of work needed on both player and dm end, juice just isn't worth the squeeze. Ten Candles does tragedy well and it's less effort to learn how to play it than adapt d&d to do it properly.
 

For some genres, D&D just isn't good fit. Is it technically doable? Sure, pretty much anything is technically doable in D&D. But like @Hussar said, for some genres you are actively fighting system. I would argue that for the amount of work needed on both player and dm end, juice just isn't worth the squeeze. Ten Candles does tragedy well and it's less effort to learn how to play it than adapt d&d to do it properly.
Have you ever played 10 Candles? I just read the wiki page and it talked about it being more of a horror game in the vein of Dread but using candles instead of a Jenga tower. Looks like fun. Although, I'm not sure it's very suited for more extended play. It's meant to be run in a single sitting, no?

But, the point is well made. There are systems out there that would handle tragedy far better than D&D would.

I guess my question to @I'm A Banana is, why are you wedded to the idea of using D&D for this?
 

I don't see "the scope needs to be big" as a battle, I just see it as kind of a constraint on what D&D-as-tragedy can look like. D&D's got big scope, and I'm OK with the scope of this tragedy being big (while still being related to the characters' own flaws).

And I'm very much interested in D&D-as-tragedy. I'm happy to loot ideas from other games (and somewhat expecting to), but part of the fun here is in defying the usual tropes of the heroic fantasy genre, and in playing an ongoing campaign like this.

I do think that one of the things to maybe loot from other systems is the idea of shifting narrative control. 10 Candles' shrinking dice pool is fun. And, it might be a good idea to set the stakes and nature of the big tragedy up front as 10 Candles does. Heck, the world-shaking nature of it sets this up nicely: The world is ending, and its your fault. There are heroes of destiny, and then there is the other side of the coin: grim reapers of worlds, destined destroyers. You're one of 'em. When the campaign is over, the world ends. You can't stop it. You can pursue your own goal within that bound. Do you seek to understand why the world is ending? To escape it? To save who you can? To revel in its final days? To delay it as long as possible? If I define that as the space of narrative control and use the shrinking dice pool, that could be a nice looting.

That might even work for the "NPC's do a tragic thing in an adventure, how do we make sure the PC's don't keep stopping it" example.

Like:

Premise: Say, 1st level. A Bonnie and Clyde quest where the PC's are chasing a couple of doomed criminals. Basic set up is basic D&D: they stole something, somebody wants it back, find them and get it. Moment-to-moment play is basic D&D: going to places, investigating things, fighting off bandits working for the couple, following a McGuffin trail to a hideout, delving into the hideout, etc.

Setting Up the Fall: Early on, first place they check, the party learns from others/diaries/etc. that the couple is wildly in love and willing to risk it all for each other. Plant this clue in plenty of places. Once I introduce the hamartia, I set down two d20's. I declare the outcome, something cryptic like, "This is fated: These two people will be each others' undoing."

Entropy: As a DM, I know I'm working toward a climax where they die in a conflict with local guards, with the PC's present for this. I imagine three key points on the journey from hook to that climax: 1) PC's find Bonnie and Clyde and find out why they're doing this ("One last big heist and then we can retire."), and then the pair escapes; 2) The PC's find them again, stop the big heist, and learn something about how this will play out ("They'll never take us apart! We're gonna have a big wedding when we're in the next kingdom!"), only to have them flee when the town guards show up; 3) The final stand, the town guards open fire, the PC's watch the two of them get riddled with arrows or fall off a cliff or get lit on fire or gut themselves with their swords or whatever. This happens while the party's busy with the thing they're actually expected to win against (the bandit captain, Bonnie & Clyde's second-in-command). The party gets a small reward for helping to end their reign of terror.

For beat 1 and beat 2, when I take control, I give a PC one of the d20's and say something like: "The pair escapes. Tell me how." That PC then has Inspiration to spend for the rest of the session.

Campaign Scope: Between the sessions, I describe how the world slips closer to demise thanks to something that happened in the previous session, something that arose from one of the PC's own hamartia in the session ("See, your character would also Do Anything For The Person You Love, and so when they asked what the guards did with the magical McGuffin Bonnie & Clyde were trying to escape with, you didn't withhold, though you maybe felt like your lover was a little too excited to learn that it wound up with that drunk, Sarge McGill"). I then give the party their nightmare about the forthcoming apocalypse and ask them the usual D&D question: What do you do about it?

And from there, we hook into the next adventure.

And probably not every adventure follows this format, but "give a PC a d20 for Inspiration and ask them what happens" while watching the resources dwindle...it retains player agency, asks them to conspire in the premise of the campaign, and gives them a little treat for helping out.

This is just spontaneous, I'm sure there's some refinement that I could do here, but this isn't....fundamentally alien to D&D. Most of the game plays normal, sometimes I just bribe a player to tell me how everything goes pear-shaped.
 

I wouldn't argue against that. Seems about right.
You can always find exceptions of course.

My partner (who I cite because she is the one with the Eng Lit degree) never had any time for Romeo.

And I have heard said the real tragedy of Hamlet is that over the course of the play he grows from being weak and indecisive to cunning and bold - ideal king material in fact. Then he dies and Denmark is invaded by Norway.
 

@Hussar I have. It's fun game. And it's mix of tragedy and horror that always ends with - world ends, everyone dies, no matter how hard you try. It's meant to be played as one shot.

But there are other games that do tragedy better. Like good old VtM. Virtues, vices, humanity, hunger, derangement. All tools that can be used for creating tragedy. Tragic stories are bread and butter of VtM.
 


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