Dominate Person - Sage Advise needed!

[Jack Simth]

Ignoring the fact that after they made the sandwich, they left it on the counter (because you didn't say bring it to me )

No... Obviously, the victim starts casting Polymorph Any Object (if available; seeking a source of the spell at highest possible efficiency if not... or maybe someone with Profession (Chef), or who could attempt a Craft(Sandwich) check would use sharp objects instead...) at the Dominate caster.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Regarding Sense Motive: Yes, a DC 15 Sense Motive check will spot that there's a problem.

The question is, when do people get that check? Do they have to ask for it? If so, how obvious are the clues that might make them ask for it?

In my opinion, making them ask for it defeats the whole purpose of the skill. But that is a fiercely contested issue, and opinions will vary.

My own take is that the victim may be able to pass casual observation, depending on how out-of-character the obsession is.

I agree with you, but a DC 15 Sense Motive check isn't "casual observation." That's an untrained observer with 20 Wisdom taking 10, or someone who is actually trained to notice things doing so. It is, in fact, a "tough" skill check according to Table 4-3.

So even a "typical obsession" by dominate person standards is tough to spot; I'd be wary of making it much harder to spot "mild" ones.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I don't think so. Let's look at RAW from SRD and how it is phrased:

Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth).
​

I don't think spell preparation qualifies as those activities necessary for day-to-day survival and there is no debate it does not fall under the category of "sleeping, eating, and so forth." WotC adding those examples just in case someone tried get away with something. A dominated caster isn't prep'ing new spell, isn't sharpening her sword, isn't even bathing (barbarians don't bathe anyway so no DC there ).

You give someone a command, "Go kill Mailee", they go and do that and keep trying it until the die or succeed with whatever tools they have with them at that moment. That dominated person isn't going home to plot out a strategy or memorize a spell or even pack a lunch.

I disagree completely. The dominated person will attempt to carry out the command (go kill Mialee) to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival. That means "no dilly-dallying." It doesn't mean "use your bare hands rather than take the time to draw your sword." If Mialee is hiding within an impenetrable fortress, warded by magical traps and surrounded by elite guards, it would be absurd for a dominated wizard to attempt to the carry out the command (go kill Mialee) with the dagger he happens to have on him at that moment. That plan has no chance of success, and interpreting the spell to require such "planning" makes a mockery of the phrase "will attempt to."

Furthermore, if you interpret the rules so, dominators will just become much more explicit in their commands: "First, spend ten minutes thinking of the best possible way you can go kill Mialee. Then memorize whatever spells will be helpful to you in executing your plan to go kill Mialee. Do anything else necessary to be successful at killing Mialee. Then, go kill Mialee."

Let's look at the text from SRD

Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).
​

1. First off, there is nothing in the SRD about needing a "problem" to warrant a Sense Motive. Your adding that qualifier should be a red flag for you to reexamine your own interpretation of the spell.

2. The SM DC check has been lowered by 10. Per RAW, Dominate is one of the few spells that is so obvious you get a DC 15 spell to notice its effects without there even being a stated problem. DC 15 is arguably trivial for anything that has SM as a class skill and is high enough level to encounter a Vampire.

That is the wrong standard by which to measure the spell, however. DC 15 should be trivial for those unusual individuals who have actually trained the ability to Sense Motive.

The correct standard is found on Table 4-3: a DC 15 skill check is "tough" by ordinary human standards. Only exceptional individuals will succeed easily...as they're supposed to. That's what makes them exceptional.

A 1st level Monk in our campaign had +8 on his SM check.

Right. He's an exceptional individual. That's why he's an adventuring PC, and not the village carpenter.

Stop and ask yourself what WotC is trying to communicate about this spell--it's bloody obvious when someone is dominated because the control is so overpowering you do nothing else.

No. It's still tough to detect that someone is dominated; it's just easier than detecting that someone is charmed, which is (let's consult Table 4-3 again) "formidable."

If your friend Bob gets dominated, he doesn't turn into a virtual zombie; that would be more like a DC 5 (easy) or DC 0 (very easy) Sense Motive check. It's more like: "Gee, Bob sure is quiet lately. And he seems to be really focused on going and killing Mialee...almost too focused."

 

[Vegepygmy]

If I were the DM and the dominator said, "Okay...now act naturally." That would constitute a command which doesn't have any termination point. DC checks galore.

I would argue that that is the "default state" in which the dominated person exists without any specific command from the dominator. The person is still dominated, and thus (by RAW) the enchantment can be detected using Sense Motive; the inference I draw is that the dominated person "just isn't himself," though few around him will realize it.

 

[Arrowhawk]

That means "no dilly-dallying." It doesn't mean "use your bare hands rather than take the time to draw your sword."

You're making absurd assumptions in order to make a point. No where did I suggest a person with a sword would use their bare hands. I said they'd use whatever tools that had handy.

If Mialee is hiding within an impenetrable fortress, warded by magical traps and surrounded by elite guards, it would be absurd for a dominated wizard to attempt to the carry out the command (go kill Mialee) with the dagger he happens to have on him at that moment.

If you said go kill Mailee with the dagger you have in your hand, that's exactly what the person would do. If you told them to use any means necessary, well who knows what that would entail. As I said above, you could order the person replenish their spells and whatever else you felt necessary. But if there is nothing in RAW that says a person will automatically be able to do the task.

That plan has no chance of success, and interpreting the spell to require such "planning" makes a mockery of the phrase "will attempt to."

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

Furthermore, if you interpret the rules so, dominators will just become much more explicit in their commands: "First, spend ten minutes thinking of the best possible way you can go kill Mialee. Then memorize whatever spells will be helpful to you in executing your plan to go kill Mialee. Do anything else necessary to be successful at killing Mialee. Then, go kill Mialee."

If it's some task that the person can't easily accomplish, you may need to lay it out for them. Dominate Person is a blunt force object. Killing some high level wizard in a fortress which requires elaborate planning is probably not what DP was intended for. Such a task would undoubtedly be against someone's nature. Geas would be a better choice.

That is the wrong standard by which to measure the spell, however.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but a 1st level commoner with no skill points in SM is going to notice it 1/4 of the time. Walk through a crowd of commoners and you're pretty much going to be noticed. Hang out with the family and they have a 45% chance of noticing something. Commpare that with the DC 25 of other enchantments and a commoner has ZERO CHANCE to notice something is amiss.

That's what makes them exceptional.***
Right. He's an exceptional individual. That's why he's an adventuring PC, and not the village carpenter.

Maybe we play different games. But I play the one where everyone in the party is an adventurer. Maybe you play with all commoners?? I don't know.

No. It's still tough to detect that someone is dominated; it's just easier than detecting that someone is charmed, which is (let's consult Table 4-3 again) "formidable."

Dominate Person is detectable by a commoner. Any other enchantment is not. You're certainly entitled to your own perceptions on what WotC intends by fixing the DC's as they have.

If your friend Bob gets dominated, he doesn't turn into a virtual zombie;

Since nobody in this thread has suggested the person gets turned into a zombie, I have no idea why you make this comparison.

 

[Arrowhawk]

I would argue that that is the "default state" in which the dominated person exists without any specific command from the dominator. The person is still dominated, and thus (by RAW) the enchantment can be detected using Sense Motive; the inference I draw is that the dominated person "just isn't himself," though few around him will realize it.

If you give someone a command, that triggers a DC 15 SM check. There is nothing in RAW that modifies the check based on the nature of the command given. "Act naturally" is unequivocally a command.

You can, of course, Rule 0 anything you want.

EDIT:
If you stop and think about it for two seconds, you'll realize it would be absurd for a dominator to be able to give someone a command such that no check would be triggered. If that were possible, then you would simply end every command with a "and do it such that no one knows you're being dominated" or "and do it while acting naturally."

 

[Vegepygmy]

If you give someone a command, that triggers a DC 15 SM check.

Wrong. No command is required to trigger the DC 15 Sense Motive check. Simply dominating the person is enough.

There is nothing in RAW that modifies the check based on the nature of the command given. "Act naturally" is unequivocally a command.

Agreed on both points.

You can, of course, Rule 0 anything you want.

Indeed you can. I'm not sure what you think I'm "rule zeroing," but I certainly could.

EDIT:
If you stop and think about it for two seconds, you'll realize it would be absurd for a dominator to be able to give someone a command such that no check would be triggered.

Again, I agree. I hope you don't think I've argued for any such thing.

 

[Arrowhawk]

Wrong. No command is required to trigger the DC 15 Sense Motive check. Simply dominating the person is enough.

Here is what SRD says:

Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).​

Seems pretty clear that the command is what results in limited behavior which results in the lower DC 15. I suppose one could argue that if there were no command, then a DC 25 would still apply.

 

[Vegepygmy]

You're making absurd assumptions in order to make a point. No where did I suggest a person with a sword would use their bare hands. I said they'd use whatever tools that had handy.

How handy? Can the dominated person draw a sheathed sword in order to use it? Can he walk across the room to pick it up so he can use it? Can he go downstairs to get it? Can he go outside? Can he go across town?

Where do you draw the line?

I think the dominated person can do whatever is reasonably necessary to equip himself to perform the ordered action. If the fighter has to go across town to get a sword, he will. He just won't stop to smell any flowers along the way. If the wizard has to prepare a magic missile to have any reasonable chance of killing Mialee, he will.

If Mialee is hiding within an impenetrable fortress, warded by magical traps and surrounded by elite guards, it would be absurd for a dominated wizard to attempt to the carry out the command (go kill Mialee) with the dagger he happens to have on him at that moment.

If you said go kill Mailee with the dagger you have in your hand, that's exactly what the person would do.

Sure. But if you didn't specify "with the dagger you have in your hand," he won't. Don't move the goalposts.

That plan has no chance of success, and interpreting the spell to require such "planning" makes a mockery of the phrase "will attempt to."

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

I'm saying that "attempting" to do the impossible is not an "attempt" at all.

If a dominated person is commanded to "fly from City A to City B," does he stand there and flap his arms pointlessly? Or does he walk himself over to the magic airship tower, pay the fare, and catch a ride to City B?

If a dominated person is commanded to "climb up onto that roof," does he claw and scrape at the sheer sides of the building until his hands are bloody stumps? Or does he walk six houses down, get the ladder he knows his neighbor keeps there, and use it to climb up onto the roof?

That is the wrong standard by which to measure the spell, however.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but...

But nothing. You asked what WotC was trying to communicate about the spell, and I pointed you to Table 4-3. In their own words, a DC 15 Sense Motive check is a "tough" Sense Motive check. That's the answer to your question.

Maybe we play different games. But I play the one where everyone in the party is an adventurer. Maybe you play with all commoners?? I don't know.

I play in games where the PCs are exceptional individuals in a world populated mostly by ordinary people, and I consider those ordinary people to set the baseline for what is typical, while the PCs are almost always extraordinary specimens.

If your friend Bob gets dominated, he doesn't turn into a virtual zombie;

Since nobody in this thread has suggested the person gets turned into a zombie, I have no idea why you make this comparison.

I make the comparison because it's not as obvious when someone is being dominated as you seem to believe it is. It's "bloody obvious" when someone has been zombified; it's not that obvious when they are being dominated.

 

[Hassassin]

Seems pretty clear that the command is what results in limited behavior which results in the lower DC 15. I suppose one could argue that if there were no command, then a DC 25 would still apply.

Personally, I would give a DC 25 sense motive when not under a specific command. DC 15 when carrying out the command. I would also allow a "that's enough" command to make the target act somewhat naturally again. The RAW isn't very clear, though.

How handy?

That's the question. The SRD also says: "Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out." I would interpret it as making the subject do what is required to have a chance of 1) succeeding in the task and 2) coming out alive. How slim the chance can be requires some handwaving, but attacking a guarded wizard with a dagger seems both self-destructive and futile.