Don’t reinvent the wheel, being well versed in different RPGs

[pemerton]

You are right. As I said, it uses lifepaths.

That's true, and perhaps I misspoke. The onus is placed on the GM, with clear expectations from the players that have to be met. The GM needs to be much more responsive to the players and that creates (in my experience) a very different dynamic than D&D. Where I can freewheel as a GM in a FATE game easily, I find it impossible to do so in BW (which is part of why I don't run it!).

I've never GMed Fate. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "freewheel" - but I generally run BW without prep, other than perhaps burning up a monster or some "rogues".

Most recently I've played BW with my friend where we each have a PC, and we shift GMing responsibilities depending on whose PC is "in the frame". I can't really imagine playing D&D in that style!

 

[aramis erak]

Following the advice to be well versed in the different kinds of RPGs before attempting to make a heartbreaker. What RPGs (or near RPG) would you suggest?
My guess at a comprehensive list:

One cannot make a comprehensive list within a single post...

A few worth getting a feel for
Blood & Honor or Houses of the Blooded (same engine) by John Wick.

Monsters! Monsters! and Tunnels and Trolls either 1e+5e, or Deluxe of each. One engine, 2 games. Ultralight combat, but players are supposed to be allowed to try wacky or nifty tricks, the GM sets a difficulty. 1st ed of T&T was 1975... and unlike Traveller, it's ALWAYS had copies available.
Traveller: Classic is still rocking; Mongoose's version is more modern, but equally solid. Whole editions (Except Mongoose's) are sold by Marc Miller on CD (or if requested, thumb-drives), $35 per disk for PDF (farfuture.net) MegaTraveller has mass combat that works very much like personal combat.

At least two different Very-light/ultra-light games: Cosmic Patrol, Risus, My Little Pony Tails of Equestria, Lasers and Feelings, 3:16 (there are several more)

A couple solid storygames, such as Cosmic Patrol, 3:16, Grey Ranks, Fiasco, Once Upon A Time. (Note:OUAT is NOT an RPG, but it is a storygame. Fiasco being an RPG is argued by some; I don't consider it an RPG. But Fiasco is very much a storygame)

Palladium's The Mechanoids, The Mechanoid Invasion (in The Mechanoid Trilogy). It''s a very playable ruleset in a rocking setting.

Is the goal primarily

1. Exposure to different systems
2. History of the development of systems

If (1) then use the latest versions. Like there is no reason to play Spirit of the Century if you want to know how Fate works, because modern day Fate is a way better game.

If (2) then we need to start looking at publication dates.

There are several game lines where each edition is a new engine.
Traveller is a great study: CT 1e in 1977, CT 2e in 1981, MegaTraveller in 1987, Traveller: The New Era in 1992, T4 in 1998. T5 in 2015 MGT 1 in 2008, MGT2 in 2016? MGT2.1 in 2024. Plus official ports to d20 (Called T20 Traveller's Handbook), GURPS, and Hero System.CT 1e and 2e are the only editions which are truly compatible, but MegaTraveller is convert on the fly. T:TNE is technically a port to 2nd ed Twilight 2000, and many things are convert-on-the fly. T4 and T5 share the same underpinnings...
The 1986 "Traveller: 2300" is a related game, different setting and tech assumptions.
Dice by Edition:
CT, MT, T4, T5, GT, HT: d6's only
T:TNE: d6's d20's, and faking a d16 using a d20 and rerolling.
T20 THB: full poly set.
T2300: d6's and d10.

 

[Joshua Randall]

we each have a PC, and we shift GMing responsibilities depending on whose PC is "in the frame". I can't really imagine playing D&D in that style!

Why not? I’m honestly surprised you of all people can’t imagine it!

Our 4e D&D table does it quite often and I ran an entire 3e/3.5e campaign with just two participants, switching DM/player side depending on the scene.

Sure, the rules for those games don’t give you any extra dials and levers to HELP you shift DM/player responsibilities, but they don’t PREVENT you either.

—

On that note: I’ll add Ironsworn / Starforged / Sundered Isles to the list as an example of a game that not only allows for seamlessly shifting among “guided play” (GM // players) and co-op play… but of course also is designed for solo play where you, the singular human player, are GM+player in one, at all times.

 

[Umbran]

Following the advice to be well versed in the different kinds of RPGs before attempting to make a heartbreaker. What RPGs (or near RPG) would you suggest?
My guess at a comprehensive list:
(I have not read most of these)
-Dungeons & Dragons B/X
-Cairn
-Ultraviolet Grasslands
-Fate
-Fiasco
-Amber Diceless
-BRP (Basic Roleplaying)
-Hillfolk
-Bubblegum Shoe (is that a good Gumshoe system to start with?)
-Over the Edge
-Apocalypse World
-Honey Heist
-Burning Wheel
But I really don’t know what amazing features each system brings (or what they don’t do.)
Also, it’s hard to recommend reading a ton of books to people

Honey Heist is awesome, but... it is a one-page game. Other than "keep it simple, stupid" it doesn't have a lot of game design wisdom to give you. There's a ton of DMing technique you can learn from running it, however.

If you are trying to make a fantasy heartbreaker, you should look at fantasy versions of a couple of the games on that list.

Bubblegumshoe is nice, but to see a fantasy version of Gumshoe, look at Swords of the Serpentine, by Kevin Kulp and Emily Dresner. This game extends the investigative spending aspects of Gumshoe (which aren't so useful in most fantasy), and builds them out to also cover action scenes.

For Fate, you might look at The Dresden Files RPG - it is urban fantasy, rather than classic epic fantasy, but it shows the system leaning fantastical, regardless.

 

[Umbran]

You need to play. As many different games as possible. With as many different people as possible. Conventions are great for this. So is online although I’m an old man so IDK how that new fangled online thing works.

I will note - convention play will only get you experience with the basic rules dynamics. It won't tell you anything about how the game dynamics change with growth over campaign play, which is important for many designs.

 

[Laurefindel]

( I would suggest looking at the One Ring is good because it shows a way to reward working as a team; it incentivizes positive party dynamics not through tactical synergy, but through having specific effects that key off of other PCs (and does so better than any game I have read).)

The One Ring was one of my most formative read when it comes to game design. It is made to work best with a narrow focus in mind, but many games are based on a narrow focus, try to expand, and get lost. This one managed to keep it together.

The One Ring is also an excellent example of a game designed for a specific fiction rather than fiction slapped on a generic game engine. So while it is tailored specifically for Tolkien’s works in the third age, the way it caters to those specifics are easily portable to other fictions. I made two RPGs based on The One Ring; a Star Wars version and a space opera sci fi based on the Twilight Imperium board game. It’s definitely high in my list of influential game designs.

 

[Umbran]

If your game design is tight and your game fun, it's well produced and finds an audience . . . good work!

That's probably the real reason to be familiar with other games, though. The more you know about design principles, the more you'll be able to keep your design tight. This isn't so much about not reinventing the wheel, as it is keeping your design out of a rut. Sure, you might reinvent the wheel. But, more importantly, you want to know that getting around might be wheels, runners, boots, or wings, and what those can look like.

To that end, if you want to see more modern designs, I think Blades in the Dark ought to be on the list.

You might also want a Cortex game (maybe Tales of Xadia), and a Cypher System game in there as well, because these systems, along with Savage Worlds and Fate, are some of the better toolboxes.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I will note - convention play will only get you experience with the basic rules dynamics. It won't tell you anything about how the game dynamics change with growth over campaign play, which is important for many designs.

Yes, very good point.

However if I had a choice between "play in convention one-shots knowing that experience is warped by being a one shot and won't show me what an ongoing campaign of this game looks like" vs. "don't play the game, just read it", I would choose the first option every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

What's the goal here? If it's to read about lots of different systems that do their particular thing well I'd add Blades in the Dark and Trophy Gold to the list, and probably recommend Swords of the Serpentine as the Gumshoe book. That's off the top of my head anyway. On the OSR front Into the Odd is quite influential as well, are Knave and Troika.

Blades in the Dark appears to be an example of:
-A (criminal or rogue) crew going on heists narrative
-Emergent Storytelling, players provide preparation details before heist and with flashback mechanics
-Everything and everyone is grey, morally ambiguous players in a corrupt world

-The dice system gives me a bit of a headache
-Uses clocks to mark progress of eminent events

-The setting city is a mixture of steam punk and fantasy elements
- Nobody passes into the afterlife and ghosts are everywhere
-Rival factions are almost all criminal and the police are corrupt and self serving

Blades in the Dark is a slippery system for me, listening to podcast plays of it and reading reviews leave me with tons of questions. A criminal player character campaign worries me as it seems the territory of self important murder hobo style play (though I assume Blades in the Dark prevents or limits this somehow?)

 

[Theory of Games]

You do not need to read AND play several ttrpgs in order to design a good one. You need to study ttrpg design.

If you've run (or at least played) ttrpgs, study Fudge. It's a ttrpg toolkit that helps new designers piece together their own ttrpgs and it has been used by many successful designers.

Fudge (role-playing game system) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fudge isn't easy to devour, but once you have it, you can then look at other ttrpgs and see the deeper theory that shapes their rules - which can empower your own designs.