OGL Don't Give Ground

[GMforPowergamers]

A heartbreaker, by definition, is "D&D with a few changes."

4e was very much a ground floor rewrite... it was take all the concepts of D&D all the feel and make the mechanics work in a whole new balanced way. I LOVED IT, and I totally see it as D&D, but it (like 3.0 before it) totally changed the game.

remember how different 3e was from 2e too

 

[Haplo781]

by that logic would not pathfinder be the heartbreaker... and 4e be the one with the name?

Exactly.

 

[The Stray]

A heartbreaker, by definition, is "D&D with a few changes."

4e was far too different to qualify. And I say that as a megafan of 4e.

All due respect to Mr. Dancey, but calling it a "fantasy heartbreaker" is a huge disservice to the people who poured countless hours into the design and development of 4e.

I think it's a perfect analogy. I saw a different stream he was in which touched on this more. 4e was the game designers trying to fix all the flaws they saw in the game. Which is why it was so different. But people didn't want different. They wanted "what we have, but cleaner." Which is what Pathfinder provided. Pathfinder, for those people, became the D&D they wanted.

Which left 4e in the lurch. It WAS a fantasy heartbreaker, even though it was the official brand, because it changed too much at once.

 

[raniE]

At what point is the fight over? We want everything and give them nothing. Take everything back and more, make them squirm and pay to the point of bankruptcy and spin off WotC. Got it. But, can't they just make a 6e and take their ball and go home like 4e but worse. Then 90% of the players will just follow them to 6e. Then what do we have? Careful what we ask for.

Then I have everything I wanted. I don’t care if they make a new edition that sucks or is less open. They can do that. I care about the OGL and everything that is connected to and built on it. It’s 23 years of work. I also highly doubt 90% of players would follow them to a new edition. The fad will end, the number of people playing D&D will shrink. A new edition, especially one that isn’t backwards compatible, will make people quit, like it always has.

 

[Umbran]

Folks, this thread isn't about 4e. Re-re-re-re-re-umpteeen-re-litigating 4e isn't going to be constructive.

 

[aco175]

Then I have everything I wanted. I don’t care if they make a new edition that sucks or is less open. They can do that. I care about the OGL and everything that is connected to and built on it. It’s 23 years of work. I also highly doubt 90% of players would follow them to a new edition. The fad will end, the number of people playing D&D will shrink. A new edition, especially one that isn’t backwards compatible, will make people quit, like it always has.

They could also make a new edition that is great and has everything you always wanted. They could actually make an online platform that is great and works for everyone. They could give me plastic houses and jetpacks we all were told were coming as well. Are people not going to play it if it is that cool?

I gather a lot of people here will still say no, never, where is my pitchfork. I also think that a lot of people will convert.

Of course, we will be back to the thread of the designers and if they look at the playtest feedback or have their blinders on.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I read the first sentence and I disaree.

*edit: actually first paragraph. 4 sentences. All short.

 

[Haplo781]

They could also make a new edition that is great and has everything you always wanted. They could actually make an online platform that is great and works for everyone. They could give me plastic houses and jetpacks we all were told were coming as well. Are people not going to play it if it is that cool?

I gather a lot of people here will still say no, never, where is my pitchfork. I also think that a lot of people will convert.

Of course, we will be back to the thread of the designers and if they look at the playtest feedback or have their blinders on.

If they did all that without breaking our trust? Sure. I was (and still am) a huge fan of 4e after all.

But they already broke our trust, so...

 

[Malchor Flubbit]

by that logic would not pathfinder be the heartbreaker... and 4e be the one with the name?

Is it a heartbreaker if people actually buy and play the product? Likely not, based on Ryan's definition.

You would have to ask Ryan for more clarification.

 

[Haplo781]

Is it a heartbreaker if people actually buy and play the product? Likely not, based on Ryan's definition.

You would have to ask Ryan for more clarification.

Maybe spin this into a new thread given the redtext above.

 

[raniE]

They could also make a new edition that is great and has everything you always wanted.

Chances of that are the same as those of me becoming a billionaire (because if I become a billionaire, I can buy Hasbro and make D&D whatever I want).

They could actually make an online platform that is great and works for everyone. They could give me plastic houses and jetpacks we all were told were coming as well. Are people not going to play it if it is that cool?

No they couldn’t. I don’t think that’s actually physically possible.

I gather a lot of people here will still say no, never, where is my pitchfork. I also think that a lot of people will convert.

I think some might. I’m sure many won’t. Games aren’t cars, there’s no absolute technological improvements that can be done to a game to improve it, but there is with cars (and even then many people prefer older cars that are objectively less good than newer cars). It’s art, not technology. You change something, some people aren’t going to like it, while some people will. Both will argue that their preference is better.

D&D was never the biggest game because it was the best game. It was the biggest game because it was first and then network externalities kept it that way. Making the game “better” or “worse” won’t change that.

Of course, we will be back to the thread of the designers and if they look at the playtest feedback or have their blinders on.

 

[Scars Unseen]

They could also make a new edition that is great and has everything you always wanted. They could actually make an online platform that is great and works for everyone. They could give me plastic houses and jetpacks we all were told were coming as well. Are people not going to play it if it is that cool?

I gather a lot of people here will still say no, never, where is my pitchfork. I also think that a lot of people will convert.

Of course, we will be back to the thread of the designers and if they look at the playtest feedback or have their blinders on.

If they can do all that while also keeping OGL 1.0a, then I'd definitely be on board. I'm not against an edition change at all (indeed, I'd rather have one than just a 5.1 excuse to make the old SRD obsolete). If they keep their promises regarding 1.0a, then I will buy whatever they put out that I think is worth buying.

If they kill the OGL, they've killed any chance of my continued patronage no matter what quality they put out.

 

[Aspirinsmurf]

Maybe spin this into a new thread given the redtext above.

The original 2002 essay by Ron Edwards is still up. That essay has always been somewhat controversial though, and the term may have drifted somewhat in meaning since then. I haven't been following that conversation. It doesn't really take into account the effects of having the OGL as an open-source framework and lingua franca.

The Forge :: Fantasy Heartbreakers

 

[The Stray]

The original 2002 essay by Ron Edwards is still up. That essay has always been somewhat controversial though, and the term may have drifted someone in meaning since then. I haven't been following that conversation. It doesn't really take into account the effects of having the OGL as an open-source framework and lingua franca.

The Forge :: Fantasy Heartbreakers

Considering how far into "D&D give you literal brain damage" Edwards jumped, talking about him is always kinda...fraught.

 

[Aspirinsmurf]

Considering how far into "D&D give you literal brain damage" Edwards jumped, talking about him is always kinda...fraught.

That was Vampire, to be fair. But he was a obviously an opinionated individual, and this did sour many on his attempts at intellectual analysis of the medium.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That was Vampire, to be fair. But he was a obviously an opinionated individual, and this did sour many on his attempts at intellectual analysis of the medium.

I don't know about brain damage, but I think World of Darkness did give me some unhealthy coping mechanisms

 

[Haplo781]

I don't know about brain damage, but I think World of Darkness did give me some unhealthy coping mechanisms

Yeah but if you did the LARP you also hooked up a lot so there's pluses and minuses you know?

 

[Dausuul]

At what point is the fight over? We want everything and give them nothing. Take everything back and more, make them squirm and pay to the point of bankruptcy and spin off WotC. Got it. But, can't they just make a 6e and take their ball and go home like 4e but worse. Then 90% of the players will just follow them to 6e. Then what do we have?

Then any 3PP which has been relying on the OGL for its entire product line has the ability to safely continue that product line.

And we, the community, have the ability to easily create and support a 5E-based D&D clone, in the event that Hasbro does something catastrophically stupid and destructive with D&D.

And if 6E is a good game, we get that too. (If it isn't, see the previous point.)

It'd be nice to have 6E released under an open license, but it isn't necessary. All I ask is that Wizards lives up to its past commitments with the 3E and 5E SRDs. I don't expect them to do so in the near term... but given that they appear to have once more succumbed to the madness that periodically afflicts D&D's corporate owner, which inevitably results in a crash, I have some hope that they will come back to the open gaming community when the time comes to rebuild.

 

[ThorinTeague]

Agh. Delete me.

Apologists got ya down?

 

[ThorinTeague]

Then any 3PP which has been relying on the OGL for its entire product line has the ability to safely continue that product line.

And we, the community, have the ability to easily create and support a 5E-based D&D clone, in the event that Hasbro does something catastrophically stupid and destructive with D&D.

And if 6E is a good game, we get that too. (If it isn't, see the previous point.)

It'd be nice to have 6E released under an open license, but it isn't necessary. All I ask is that Wizards lives up to its past commitments with the 3E and 5E SRDs. I don't expect them to do so in the near term... but given that they appear to have once more succumbed to the madness that periodically afflicts D&D's corporate owner, which inevitably results in a crash, I have some hope that they will come back to the open gaming community when the time comes to rebuild.

They can do whatever the heck they want with ogl1.2--it doesn't matter. Demand firstborn children to the 5th generation, tell everyone they now have to work in a coal mine, take one wall and the roof from every structure owned by those agreeing to 1.2.... doesn't matter. Go for it.

1.0a cannot be "deauthorized." There is no legal mechanism in the language for "deauthorizing" an open license. Everyone knows what it meant, what it still means, and WoTC does too. The path they are on will end in tragedy unless they do an about face ASAP.