Doppleganger up!

[AllisterH]

If he was meaning overall, it's actually even worse than that because many epic monsters are solos/elites. In fact what we need in epic monsters is just regular, non-elite and non-solos. If you remove much of the solos/elites from epic tier you're left with some demons and a handful of other creatures introduced in MM3. Epic tier is desperate for more regular, non-elite and non-solo monsters.

I think the problem with "regular" EPIC tier monsters is that people have the question a la with the Swordwings.."why exactly haven't these creatures taken over the world".

Much easier to rationalize "unique" a.k.a elite and solo epic tier monsters than regular monsters....

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I have this image of the doppelganger taking someone's image, and then for a few shimmering seconds knowing exactly where every one of their weak points and internal organs are. Striking during that period does massive damage.

That is about the most evocative idea I've heard yet that works with the "copying someone makes your attacks do massive extra damage" mechanic. Still not sure I find it anything but a very bland way of doing it, but thanks for the imagery PCat.

I think the problem with "regular" EPIC tier monsters is that people have the question a la with the Swordwings.."why exactly haven't these creatures taken over the world".

Much easier to rationalize "unique" a.k.a elite and solo epic tier monsters than regular monsters....

Yeah, to some extent this is true. OTOH I can think of plenty of situations where standard epic monsters make sense. The efreet bodyguards of the Sultan of the City of Brass for instance would make perfectly good standard epic soldiers. You can come up with many analogous situations. Plenty of monsters simply aren't that interested in ruling the world either, they are just exceptionally deadly. There are also whole classes of monsters that are just waiting around like constructs and many undead which can be perfectly justifiable epic standards.

Any given setting could also quite easily justify epic standard monsters. They are creatures that live in certain environments, have specific limitations, exist only in far off exotic locales, or simply have good reasons for not being able to take over the world that are purely fluff. Heck, maybe they DO rule the world, nothing wrong with that. I mean DS is pretty much entirely based on THAT concept, the big bads run the world and they ARE epic. You're just so far beneath their notice most of the time that you don't run into them.

The problem with a LACK of epic standard monsters is bigger than the problem of justifying them if they do exist. EVERY epic battle has to be against a single massive solo monster with maybe a bit of support here and there? For all of 10 levels? It just doesn't work that well. You need those 'footsoldier' monsters and you need them to be level appropriate.

 

[AllisterH]

The problem with a LACK of epic standard monsters is bigger than the problem of justifying them if they do exist. EVERY epic battle has to be against a single massive solo monster with maybe a bit of support here and there? For all of 10 levels? It just doesn't work that well. You need those 'footsoldier' monsters and you need them to be level appropriate.

I agree with you here..that said...opening up Monster Builder and selecting for standard monsters in the epic range, do you think there ARE enough of a number of standard monsters that it is quite possible to not use the same monster twice if you just did standard monster encounters from levels 21 to 30?

(Should be noted that djinns, efreets et al are all well-represented as standard monsters in the epic range...)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with you here..that said...opening up Monster Builder and selecting for standard monsters in the epic range, do you think there ARE enough of a number of standard monsters that it is quite possible to not use the same monster twice if you just did standard monster encounters from levels 21 to 30?

(Should be noted that djinns, efreets et al are all well-represented as standard monsters in the epic range...)

In the entire inventory of all 4e monsters? Yeah, I think there are a sufficient number. OTOH some more variety wouldn't hurt. I think people's complaint was more that MV by itself doesn't give you enough epic monsters to actually run an epic level campaign. Now, maybe there aren't a LOT of DMs that will run an epic level 4e campaign and not have books beyond MV to draw from (and not have DDI) but since Essentials does rather claim to be a pretty complete game it probably SHOULD. I expect the problem is they had to make a choice with the page count and no one 6x9 softcover could actually cover 3 tiers adequately. Really personally I don't think it is a big issue, players will acquire what they need if they play all the way up to the top of paragon.

 

[Stalker0]

EVERY epic battle has to be against a single massive solo monster with maybe a bit of support here and there? For all of 10 levels? It just doesn't work that well.

I think this is a fair point.


On the one hand, to have regular battles over 10 levels you tend to need a lot of monsters.

On the other, the very connotation of epic implies rare and special monsters, not joe scary over there.


I think what epic needs is some new settings. Places that are only accessible to epic tier guys...and therefore can contain a lot of monsters that are epic in scope.

 

[Aegeri]

Well that's inherently what the planes are for and it's not 100% true that you can't get a good amount of regular battles in epic. The problem is variety: There is just not enough variety in epic monsters. I mean if you're like me and you love demons, you're set but if you hate demons or don't want to use them often you rapidly run into issues. Also there aren't a lot of epic creatures worth their name: Poor damage, stats and powers are usually the worst offenders. Epic PCs are pretty powerful and until MM3 and Demonomicon epic monsters were lagging behind by even further than paragon creatures.

It honestly doesn't matter where they pull these things from, but we need more of them and variety for DMs who don't like demons (albeit I cannot fathom not liking demons, but some people hate them!) or undead. But regular every day rank and files are needed. We have tons of (often terrible, but I digress) elites and solos. There's just nothing to go with them.

Constructs, undead and planar creatures are good epic fodder. We could expand things that are already there like Efreets, Djinn, Angels, Devils (there should be a book on devils, but that looks unlikely with the current "direction"), Starspawn and just plain adding new things. MM3 when it added new epic things, like the ancient angry primal spirit race did a damn fine job of it. We just need more things like that and we'll be set.

When you're stuck with pretty much the same options at heroic tier, compared to all the beautiful options available in heroic/paragon (seriously, just think about the number of different humanoid races alone available to DMs in these tiers) you see the problem. As for that last point Stalker, that's why we should have a DMG3 that covers epic tier and expands epic tier adventuring locations (both on the mortal world and amongst the planes). But once again the new thick headed "Direction" of the game probably means we'll never see that and epic tier will continue to be the red-haired step child of 4E support.

Edit: God I sound like such a whinging ninny, but if you're going to make a fully functional and actually fun "final tier" of play for once, I'd like it to actually get some support.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I was about to say the same thing, the outer planes are really the playground for epic. I've always flavored that as they are really difficult to get to in general, and it is not all that easy to find a gate to the material plane from outside either. That tends to help with the logic of them being crammed full of monsters that could eat armies for a snack.

Unlike Aegeri though, I think I'd like to see more fleshing out of some of the existing epic races vs creating any new ones. Demons are probably all set, and Devils aren't doing TOO bad, but the rest are still pretty sketchy. We have a modest number of Efreet, a Djinn or two, and IIRC a couple of Marids. These elemental races could use a considerable amount of fleshing out. Titans are another area where not much exists, though perhaps it is a bit less clear there what to add that isn't basically a giant.

The Feywild too lacks much of any kind of defined epic content. There are all kinds of personalities enumerated in MotP and I think ONE Dragon article basically, plus a few bits in Underdark. It would be great if it could be fleshed out a bunch more. There is a HUGE amount of room there with the different courts and various races and whatnot for some high paragon and epic stuff. Faerie has always been a pretty major part of European folklore too and for whatever odd reason D&D in general really tends to neglect it (heck it took 30 years just to get a land of faerie added to cannon). Lots of gold to be mined there!

 

[TerraDave]

Over the weekend I came up with an encounter where some of these and some pirate ghosts (or is it ghost pirates) takeover the ship the PCs will be traveling on next session.

I think that means I like them.