Doubt about 'vs Reflex' attacks against unconscious targets

[MadKing]

Hello guys,

I have been a passive member of the forum on the past few weeks, and glad to make my 1st post although is a (probably easy) question!

I'm the DM of a group of five 7th level PCs. On our last session, the Rogue/Assassin went below 0 hp and fell unconscious. After this, the Boneshard skeleton attacking him was dropped to 0 hit points, which triggered the 'Boneshard burst' aaaand the debate started. Let me introduce you the participants:

Boneshard burst
Close burst 3; +8 vs Reflex; 2d6 + 3 necrotic damage.

The Rogue's defense for this matter
24 Reflex.

I rolled a 10 with the dice, +8 of the skill, it was a 18 against Reflex.

At 1st glance, I made the mistake of trying to apply common sense (such an underestimated skill) and think that an unconscious character cannot make (at least full) use of his Reflex defense. So I tried to make the hit effective, thinking that a total 18 is not a bad result for trying to hit someone unconscious on the floor. Of course, the dying PC didn't agreed with me and told me that not all his defenses were natural, he had magical items boosting his reflexes (I found some sense on this, though I wasn't totally convinced).

After arguing for a (not so) few minutes, we decided just to attach to the rules and used the 'unconscious' state from the PH. It says that an 'Unconscious' PC is also 'Helpless' and that is a -5 to all defenses. So:

Rogue's reflex = 24 (his total) - 5 (from helpless) = 19
Boneshard Burst = Rolled 18

He wasn't affected by the attack. yay! He did not died in that turn. (Sadly for him, the skeleton was a vicious killer who made a coup de grace on his turn, seconds after the 'Boneshard burst' fail, he was using a scimitar, and we all know how scimitar score critical hits).

My questions are:
1) Is there some other conditions I'm missing about burst attacks targeting the unconscious?

2) Besides the answer to the previous question, is there some more specific rule when targeting the Reflex defense on unconscious objectives?

There are 2 things that I can't get out of my head:

- I understand that if an arrow seeks for an unconscious target CA, it might hit him, but if the roll is low it might not pierce the metal. Here, I see how CA from armor is effective. But Reflexes? Check my 2nd thought.

- Let's suppose that Flash (Marvel's Speedy Gonzalez) exists on the D&D 4e universe. He might have like 500 reflex (just kidding, but he might have a lot). Suddenly Flash drops unconscious being so unlucky that someone decides to toss a grenade right next to him. The grenade is '+10 vs Reflex' (for some unknown reason). Let's see how this happen:

Flash defense
Reflex = 500 (his normal Reflex) - 5 (from helpless) = 495

Grenade attack
10 (dice roll) + 10 (grenade modifier) = 20

too bad I cannot hurt flash even though he is unconscious lying on the floor . That damned light-speed lucky bastard.

I hope you guys help me throw some light on this . Thanks in advance!

 

[Obryn]

A little.

While you're unconscious, all of the following is true...

(1) You take a -5 penalty to defenses. This is independent of everything else, as all penalties stack.
(2) You are Helpless. This includes granting combat advantage as part of its status, and opens you up to coup de grace attacks.
(3) You are prone, which won't stack for CA, but which will hurt ranged attackers. (Not area or close; just ranged.)

So the total is an effective -7 to defenses against melee/close/area attacks (including CA), not -5.

Misses are still possible. You're not dodging, but the enemy's aim might be off.

-O

 

[Nichwee]

I didn't think Helpless includes Combat Advantage (tho unconscious does iirc).
Other than that, I believe Obryn is right.

As for "The Flash" he should have a psuedo-'class feature' that gave him +X to Reflex while able to dodge. Basically, a power like Shield but usable as a free action I would expect (so unconscious or stunned would stop him being the freakishly good dodger he is otherwise).

Also not all the conditions have to be exactly as their names suggest ('prone' on an ooze, or a snake???) so it can be argued that "unconscious" is actually "barely conscious" - so able to roll to present your back to a blast, move your arm in front of your face, but not to dodge well (hence -5 to the defence, but not totally losing it).

 

[Wednesday Boy]

After this, the Boneshard skeleton attacking him was dropped to 0 hit points, which triggered the 'Boneshard burst' aaaand the debate started.

(Sadly for him, the skeleton was a vicious killer who made a coup de grace on his turn, seconds after the 'Boneshard burst' fail, he was using a scimitar, and we all know how scimitar score critical hits).

I could be misunderstanding the situation but if the Boneshard Skeleton was dropped to 0 hit points then missed with its Boneshard Burst, it shouldn't have been able to coup de grace the Rogue because it was already dead. Or was there a different Boneshard Skeleton that CdG'ed the Rogue?

(Also, to get nitpicky the Flash is DC's Speedy Gonzalez.)

 

[MadKing]

Thanks a lot for your responses!
[MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION]: Thanks a lot. Indeed we finally did it this way, and the 'misses are possible' explanation fits good.
[MENTION=84242]Nichwee[/MENTION]: Hehe that perspective is good. I think I always need that sort of cinematic link between the rules and a real situation.
[MENTION=53678]Wednesday Boy[/MENTION]: Yes, it was another skeleton ready to avenge his fella .

 

[Wednesday Boy]

@Wednesday Boy : Yes, it was another skeleton ready to avenge his fella .

Shucks! I was hoping to give the Rogue a stay of execution.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Generally speaking, if there were any other of the Rogue's party still alive, the Skeleton should have gone after them.

Coup De Grace, without a very good reason, is considered "bad form".

 

[MadKing]

Generally speaking, if there were any other of the Rogue's party still alive, the Skeleton should have gone after them.

Coup De Grace, without a very good reason, is considered "bad form".

Yes, lately monsters were really cruel on their killing attempts, but that is only because the PCs are quite overpowered. Anyway I will avoid that kind of actions from now on. I used to hit unconscious players only with Bosses, as if they were more likely to kill someone than just regular encounters.

I guess I was a little mean

 

[Obryn]

Coup de grace is also generally a trap, particularly at higher levels. Why waste your standard action to do damage that's just going to be erased next time someone lets your target spend a healing surge?

Monster crit damage just doesn't keep up, unless someone is dropped way negative on the hit that dropped them.

-O

 

[MadKing]

Coup de grace is also generally a trap, particularly at higher levels. Why waste your standard action to do damage that's just going to be erased next time someone lets your target spend a healing surge?

Monster crit damage just doesn't keep up, unless someone is dropped way negative on the hit that dropped them.

-O

Well, in this case the problem was the scimitar on the skeleton's hand:

Scimitar (standard; at will) * Necrotic, Weapon
+9 vs. AC; 1d8 + 3 (crit 1d8 + 11) plus 5 necrotic damage.

Add a +2 to attack & damage (personal thing), because the PCs are overpowered. I rolled a 5.

5 (dice) + 11 (modified) + 2 (personal modifier) + 5 (from necrotic) = 23.

The Rogue's total hp is 55, given that he was with a few less hit points because of the attack that dropped him to 0, the total damage went further than his bloodied value (in negative).

I guess I went too far