D&D 5E Downtime Activity: Trade (+thread)

[doctorbadwolf]

Just sharing an (IMO) improved downtime activity for negotiating a trade deal of any kind.

Trade

DC= 2d10 + Insight, Persuasion, or relevant tool bonus of the NPC.

You make 3 checks. One with each of Persuasion, Insight, and one of either Arcana, History, Religion, or a relevant tool proficiency. Your DM might allow Deception to replace the last roll, depending on your approach and the context of the situation. The result depends on your number of successes, as shown in the table.

Number of Successes	Result
0	No sale/deal, or you make 50%, or pay 50% more, than market price
1	Break even. You or a buyer pays market price
2	You pay 50% less or make 50% more
3	As 2, and you gain advantage on a future trade in the same downtime, or you gain additional trade goods worth 50% of the market value

Complications are rolled according to either buying or selling an item, or running a business.

Anyone else like to work out new downtime activities?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I've been trying to build a better crafting system for years now. Still not happy with my scattered notes and thoughts.

I do kind of like the idea you are going with here though for trade deals

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I've been trying to build a better crafting system for years now. Still not happy with my scattered notes and thoughts.

I do kind of like the idea you are going with here though for trade deals

Thanks!

What are your basic thoughts on crafting? Maybe if we compare notes we will both get closer to something we like?

I find that 5e's lack of depth in this regard makes it very difficult to play a crafting focused character without creating a huge headache for the DM, which in turn leads to the player being reluctant to really have fun with crafting.

Some notes that we have come up with:

Let the player make rolls to craft things. This usually impacts how long it takes, and whether any resources are wasted (ie, really bad rolls make the thing cost more, but anything else just costs what it costs). Good rolls can reduce crafting time significantly.
Incidentally, since only Artificers can get expertise in most tools, this means they are much better at reducing crafting time. Which is a good thing.

We use the Xanathar's Guide rules as a guidepost, but we restrict it a little. Anyone can craft with the relevant tools, but crafting magic items that cast spells is easier if you know the spell. You can get around that by buying a spellbook or scroll, or a schematic that contains the enchantment version of the spell.

There's more, but I would have to dig up my notes to get the details righ.t

 

[Chaosmancer]

Without digging up my own notes.

I agree that rolling is important, the biggest hurdle I struggle with is three-fold.

1) Time
2) Wealth
3) Realism

To #3, it bothers me a lot that you can make multiple gallons of Ale in a single day. I know only a very little about brewing from some research for a character, but that is not even close to something drinkable as Ale as far as I've been able to tell.

Which leads to an annoying issue that each craft or item would have to have a different time scale. I did find a site where the author went into this, but I got sidetracked before delving deep enough to see if I could take it whole cloth. Link here D&D 5e – Questionable Arcana – Mundane and Magical Makings: An Alternative Crafting System for 5th Edition

One thing I did want to take from it was an alteration of the training rules. Essentially, you could gain increasing bonuses by the GP value of your work. So, make 10,000 gp worth of blacksmithing, and you gain expertise (numbers pulled out of the air just to demonstrate the idea) the part of it was, I did the math, and the numbers were intense. I think it worked out to be close to 3 years of work, which makes sense. Mastering a craft is a skill that takes immense time and dedication to do it the hard way.

#2 is the issue that came up in a game run by a friend of mine. Being able to double your money by using half the value in resources to sell for the full price (which is how the game is structured) gives a lot of potential wealth to the players. Now, this isn't necessarily a problem, I don't mind them being able to do this, but it creates problems within the economy. I haven't found a solution I like, though the idea that perhaps you aren't always 100% efficient as based on your roll could play into this, giving some uncertainty into exactly how much it costs to make the item.

And #1 and reason I hate the base 5e system, things just take too long. The base system takes forever. I think... ah heck, I'll grab the notebook and see if I can't find it.

Okay, I'd forgotten this detail. My most recent set of notes had me doing this.

Basic crafting progressed at 10+ ranking die per day, with an additional +10 progress for working in ideal conditions (like a smithy for blacksmithing). The ranking die is based off of the training I mentioned. You start as an Journeyman with 1 proficiency level die. After you have made X gp worth of materials, you become a Master and get a second die, and then Grandmaster, and Expertise gives you an extra die regardless. So a high level grandmaster with expertise would roll 4d12 to add to their roll, a low level journeyman adds only 1d4. This does not roll a d20, because a smith can clearly make a decent sword in normal conditions.

Artisinal work though, was slightly different. Artisanal work had a DC based on this formula (Current Estimated value of the Work / 10 )

So, to make a piece worth 100 gp, with 50 gp of materials would start with a DC 10. If you succeed on the check, you get the base 10 progress + your proficiency times 5. So, succeed on a DC 5 with a +3 prof and you make 25 gold worth of progress towards your goal. If you fail by 5 or more on the check, you subtract the value instead. If you fail five times on a project, ever, then it cannot be worked on any more.

The trick here (and I'd have to dig for if more materials were called for) is that until you failed 5 times, you could keep making the roll. So after reaching a value of 100gp, I could roll again and make it 125, which increases the DC, and I can keep going and polishing the work. You can also start with lower material costs. A mastersmith might be able to make a 100gp artisanal blade with only 5 gp in material cost, with a subsequent rise in the DC of the check.

I'm probably forgetting a lot, I've got an entire notebook and I skimmed to type this much (plus, it is 1:30 AM over here) but I would not be against trying to hammer something out if we could.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Without digging up my own notes.

I agree that rolling is important, the biggest hurdle I struggle with is three-fold.

1) Time
2) Wealth
3) Realism

To #3, it bothers me a lot that you can make multiple gallons of Ale in a single day. I know only a very little about brewing from some research for a character, but that is not even close to something drinkable as Ale as far as I've been able to tell.

Which leads to an annoying issue that each craft or item would have to have a different time scale. I did find a site where the author went into this, but I got sidetracked before delving deep enough to see if I could take it whole cloth. Link here D&D 5e – Questionable Arcana – Mundane and Magical Makings: An Alternative Crafting System for 5th Edition

One thing I did want to take from it was an alteration of the training rules. Essentially, you could gain increasing bonuses by the GP value of your work. So, make 10,000 gp worth of blacksmithing, and you gain expertise (numbers pulled out of the air just to demonstrate the idea) the part of it was, I did the math, and the numbers were intense. I think it worked out to be close to 3 years of work, which makes sense. Mastering a craft is a skill that takes immense time and dedication to do it the hard way.

#2 is the issue that came up in a game run by a friend of mine. Being able to double your money by using half the value in resources to sell for the full price (which is how the game is structured) gives a lot of potential wealth to the players. Now, this isn't necessarily a problem, I don't mind them being able to do this, but it creates problems within the economy. I haven't found a solution I like, though the idea that perhaps you aren't always 100% efficient as based on your roll could play into this, giving some uncertainty into exactly how much it costs to make the item.

And #1 and reason I hate the base 5e system, things just take too long. The base system takes forever. I think... ah heck, I'll grab the notebook and see if I can't find it.

Okay, I'd forgotten this detail. My most recent set of notes had me doing this.

Basic crafting progressed at 10+ ranking die per day, with an additional +10 progress for working in ideal conditions (like a smithy for blacksmithing). The ranking die is based off of the training I mentioned. You start as an Journeyman with 1 proficiency level die. After you have made X gp worth of materials, you become a Master and get a second die, and then Grandmaster, and Expertise gives you an extra die regardless. So a high level grandmaster with expertise would roll 4d12 to add to their roll, a low level journeyman adds only 1d4. This does not roll a d20, because a smith can clearly make a decent sword in normal conditions.

Artisinal work though, was slightly different. Artisanal work had a DC based on this formula (Current Estimated value of the Work / 10 )

So, to make a piece worth 100 gp, with 50 gp of materials would start with a DC 10. If you succeed on the check, you get the base 10 progress + your proficiency times 5. So, succeed on a DC 5 with a +3 prof and you make 25 gold worth of progress towards your goal. If you fail by 5 or more on the check, you subtract the value instead. If you fail five times on a project, ever, then it cannot be worked on any more.

The trick here (and I'd have to dig for if more materials were called for) is that until you failed 5 times, you could keep making the roll. So after reaching a value of 100gp, I could roll again and make it 125, which increases the DC, and I can keep going and polishing the work. You can also start with lower material costs. A mastersmith might be able to make a 100gp artisanal blade with only 5 gp in material cost, with a subsequent rise in the DC of the check.

I'm probably forgetting a lot, I've got an entire notebook and I skimmed to type this much (plus, it is 1:30 AM over here) but I would not be against trying to hammer something out if we could.

Okay! Well, that is a lot more detail and complexity than I am inclined toward for crafting, but I like a lot of the basic ideas you’ve got.

Either after work or on my next day off I will gather my own notes, and maybe we can help each other out on this.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah, it is a bit more complex than I would like.

Might try and consolidate notes and figure some things out before we start our discussions

 

[Fenris-77]

So the go-to testing DC here is something like 12 or 13, with a range from 3 to 22? Assuming an average bonus of +2 for the NPC? I might spend some time gaming out the numbers here. When three successes equals 50% profit you don't want that to be too easy. The PCs could easily outstat the NPCs by a pretty huge margin.

Is it one character making all three rolls, or can the party split it up? If it's one guy the MAD-ness of the three rolls will help keep things in line.

If the 3 rolls are coin flip odds the chances for the PCs to get 2 successes is 50%. The chance of not either breaking even or making a great profit is something under 15% if my back of napkin math is correct there. That seems high, by which I mean it seems easy. Maybe my math is off though.

I like the basic mechanic a lot though. Multiple success ladders is something I think 5e could use more of.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So the go-to testing DC here is something like 12 or 13, with a range from 3 to 22? Assuming an average bonus of +2 for the NPC? I might spend some time gaming out the numbers here. When three successes equals 50% profit you don't want that to be too easy. The PCs could easily outstat the NPCs by a pretty huge margin.

Is it one character making all three rolls, or can the party split it up? If it's one guy the MAD-ness of the three rolls will help keep things in line.

If the 3 rolls are coin flip odds the chances for the PCs to get 2 successes is 50%. The chance of not either breaking even or making a great profit is something under 15% if my back of napkin math is correct there. That seems high, by which I mean it seems easy. Maybe my math is off though.

I like the basic mechanic a lot though. Multiple success ladders is something I think 5e could use more of.

It is generally considered a roll by a single person. I think there were sections or rules about how to have multiple people working on a project, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

One angle for the NPCs that is important is that the rankings of Apprentice, Journeyman, ect, are not tied to level, but are tied to the amount of work you do. An NPC who does this day in and day out will reach those higher ranks much faster, which add more dice to and allow them to work faster.

Also, I have no problem increasing their bonuses if I feel it is necessary. NPCs are more in the background noise anyways, I just want to make sure the system passes a sniff test in regards to them.

The 50% profit problem is really rooted in the current set up of needing half the price in materials, and the idea that all goods sold by the party are sold at half list price. It makes the math of the game easy, but leads to big windfalls for a crafter. I'm not sure of a good overall solution to it though, and I', still trying to gather my notes together to start seeing what my newest abomination actually looks like

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So the go-to testing DC here is something like 12 or 13, with a range from 3 to 22? Assuming an average bonus of +2 for the NPC? I might spend some time gaming out the numbers here. When three successes equals 50% profit you don't want that to be too easy. The PCs could easily outstat the NPCs by a pretty huge margin.

Is it one character making all three rolls, or can the party split it up? If it's one guy the MAD-ness of the three rolls will help keep things in line.

If the 3 rolls are coin flip odds the chances for the PCs to get 2 successes is 50%. The chance of not either breaking even or making a great profit is something under 15% if my back of napkin math is correct there. That seems high, by which I mean it seems easy. Maybe my math is off though.

I like the basic mechanic a lot though. Multiple success ladders is something I think 5e could use more of.

For the OP, the rolls can be split up if it makes sense, like having a second PC there to keep an eye out for BS (make the Insight check) while the lead PC makes the other two rolls.

I’m fine with it being fairly easy to succeed, but I don’t think your NPC numbers are right. A proficient NPC merchant/trader should be at at least +3, surely. The idea is the NPC uses whichever Proficiency they’re best at.

So the DC should range from 5 to about 26.

 

[Fenris-77]

What the NPC bonus should be obviously makes a big difference. My point about the math is that at 50-50 the players are making an average profit of 25% or more. Which is fine until they start investing hundreds of thousands of GP at once. That's kinda cool though too actually.

Explore Cormyr? My dear boy, I bought Cormyr.