[DRAGON #305] F-bomb dropped, Doc M fascinated.

[smetzger]

Yes,

...it leads to people making their moral choices based upon their own thoughts, and their own cultures.

Now, in return, do you realize how disturbing your question can come across?

Morality is subjective, although this is my opinion it is one born out of reality.

I don't believe morality is subjective. Some things are wrong no matter what culture you come from.

I think your being close-minded by not considering the possibility that morality is absolute.

 

[WizarDru]

The power of words are in what they symbolize, not in the words themselves. Some words carry threats of tangible negatives, i.e. the threat of being attacked, raped, etc. I would actually find it convenient if someone were to announce their intentions beforehand. But if I know my mother is not a whore, and I knew that no one honestly thought my mother was a whore, such words would just seem empty, yes. Understand?

That's fine in an intellectual discussion. To you, this may all be valid, but most human beings don't act or think that way. Hence, we return to the fact that I have no idea how to convey the difference to you. If you're splitting intellectual hairs as an exercise, and positing that the words don't have power, but the ideas that they convey...well, I'm not sure I see a difference.

 

[techno]

To people making their own decisions about what is right and wrong?

Perhaps, on the surface, this would appear to be the case. However, if you take moral relativism to its logical philosophical conclusion, the very root of the argument is: "no action is wrong as long as the individual/society can justify it in his/their own mind(s)." It means there can be no "good" or "evil." These become meaningless terms. I do not want to live in such a society. My own life experience has taught me that morality is not relative.

 

[jester47]

I don't think that the f-word means what you think it means. Sure, there's the Original Definition, but you can't be slavishly dependent on that. Language evolves.

Fact is, the definition of the f-word today is simply "a meaningless intensive" -- and as the old joke goes, it is the most versatile word in the English language.

A great reference book, by the way, is "The F-Word" by Jesse Sheidlower.

Yeah, another great reference book is the Oxford English Dictionary. Shows the use of the words all the way back to first written reference. And no, it is not a meaningless intensive no matter how much Quentin Tarantino or Oliver Stone or any number of baby boomers or Eminiem or numerous musicians want it to be. Words have meaning.

Aaron.

 

[mkarol]

You may think words are symbols and meaningless by themselves, but the rest of society tends to disagree with you. That is why they are called "profane".

SD

As a member of the rest of society, I do not think there is anything inherently "profane" in any word. By "profane" i mean vulgar, coarse. I think context is exceptionally important. If i walk up to my best friend and say "what up B----?" (which i do often because its a vernacular we use in fun), then there is nothing disrespectful or inappropriate about this use of a word.

On the other hand, if I go to my boss and say "what up B----?" the context is different. Would she be insulted? Yes. Should I assume that? Yes. Would it be smart of me to do this? No. Therefore i wouldn’t.

The N-word is a classic example of a word so emotionally charged and possibly damaging that it is considered profane.

SD

Actually, the N word is a classic example of context being the key to the word's usage. There is a population which can freely use it amongst itself with impunity and another population that can not. To some people it is an inappropriate word never to be uttered, and to others it is a term of acknowledgment between friends/companions/acquaintance.

Further example. As a Jew, I say “I’m a Jew,” all the time. I say “My dad is a Jew.” There is nothing wrong with the J-- word in this context. Now, if I am at the store, and the cashier forgets to give me my change and I say “please give me the $.52 you owe me” and someone else goes “Oh, stop being a Jew!” _THEN_ there would be some profane (in the sense of coarse or irreverent) word use.

In other words, there is nothing inherently "proper" or "not proper" about a word. Its all about how the user receives it based on the context it is delivered.

---

So what does this mean for Dragon, a publisher of fantasy information for use in the D&D world? The context of a gritty fiction piece used to promo the treatment of the world in which the piece is set as a D&D setting? If the context is appropriate, use the word! If you don’t like it, don’t read it. If you don’t want your kid to read it, don’t let him. If you believe “Dragon” should only publish “G” material, well, I disagree.

 

[EricNoah]

Perhaps, on the surface, this would appear to be the case. However, if you take moral relativism to its logical philosophical conclusion, the very root of the argument is: "no action is wrong as long as the individual/society can justify it in his/their own mind(s)." I do not want to live in such a society.

Okee dokee!

 

[jester47]

I don't think that the f-word means what you think it means. Sure, there's the Original Definition, but you can't be slavishly dependent on that. Language evolves.

Fact is, the definition of the f-word today is simply "a meaningless intensive" -- and as the old joke goes, it is the most versatile word in the English language.

A great reference book, by the way, is "The F-Word" by Jesse Sheidlower.

Another thing that I think I am saying is that it should not be a problem if the word is used

1) as the verb it is meant to be used as
2) in stating somthing that someone else (a character or in a recount of events) said.

I think that there are far better descriptions than using that verb, but I do not think that it is static or should be seen as absolutely off limits. Heck, youd think that Satan's name was f---.

Aaron.

 

[smetzger]

Okee dokee!

I believe its "Okley Dokley"

 

[Sagan Darkside]

As a member of the rest of society, I do not think there is anything inherently "profane" in any word.

There would be no such word as profane if that was true.

Actually, the N word is a classic example of context being the key to the word's usage. There is a population which can freely use it amongst itself with impunity and another population that can not.

What a segment of a society decides to do to a word does not change the nature of that word for the society as a whole.

SD

 

[Henry]

I'm waiting....

...but not for long.

I would like an explanation for how the negative connotations of profane words actually hurt anyone. Some say it promotes lazy speech. Getting beyond the issue of one person's lazy being another person's efficiency, how is this a moral issue and not a stylistic one. Why can it not be left to the reader to put it into context.

Lazy is simply that: an action taken for the sake of avoidance of work. Take the example of someone giving their opinion of a game product. To me, it takes a little more effort to say, "This product had poor editing, had content of no value to me, and portrayed its female NPC's in a negative light," than to say, "This product sucked monkey . It was that ing bad." Which opinion offered more insight, and turned away less readers? Which one looked like it had an ounce of forethought?

It creates barriers to communication, especially when trying to communicate among a broad audience of different backgrounds. Profanity for its sake (in other words, excessively used with no obvious purpose other than shock value) has always been considered crude and low-class by scholars of language, and at one time, by the majority of the literary community. But the reasons have always been more than just moral or religious ones.

And as to the opinion that a Forum such as RPG.net has a greater degree of rude noise than here, could that perception simply be the result of one's assumption about the place of vulgarity and not the concepts/ideas being elucidated?
[/B]

In my case, I rarely go to RPG.net, because I can hardly pick someone's point out of the swirling sirocco of four letter words that are used. In casual conversation, some assumptions can be made - you know your audience by being able to "read" them in person. But one does not know one's audience with such familiarity in an online forum. You would not necessarily use the same language with peers that you would with your parents or your employer present - and online there is a chance (slim but there) that EITHER could be listening. (Whoever says 'my parents are dead and I own my own business' are missing the point.)

Therefore, rather than open the doors to any language possible (a la RPG.net, where I have seen everything except racial slurs), also opening the door to hostile feelings among peers, less distinctive communication, and just plain communicative sloth, it strikes me as more productive to restrict the most offensive language so that friendly communication remains clear.

P.S. Notice that here, we do not restrict all profanity. Sometimes it is helpful to convey how damned frustrated we get when Wizards of the Coast lays off one of our favorite game designers, for example. But there is harm done - one must pay attention to where the harm is placed, and if it is warranted.

(I'll bet some of you just lost respect for me just now.)