[DRAGON #305] F-bomb dropped, Doc M fascinated.

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But my final thought is: "Profanity is the effort of a feeble mind to express itself forcibly." And here's your counter-argument, for good measure: "well, the characters are feeble-minded and the author is just being true to that." Unpopular as my retort will seem, here it is: "ultimately, the character didn't write the book. The author did. Hence it is, in the truest, purest sense, the author who is in fact trying to express himself forcefully."

Now there's a nonsensical statement. Is Catcher in the Rye less because it uses profanity? If an author uses profanities in detached third person "omniscient" mode, I would agree that such a decision possibly reflects a "feeble mind." But to say that realistic dialogue is reflective of a feeble mind is ludicrous. People really do talk that way. Martin's books are superb because for the most part the stories are realistic. So too are the characters realistic and well drawn. So too is their dialogue. And while, as in real life, the "well bred" will not curse, coarse, boisterous men like, say, Robert Baratheon will. As they undoubtedly would in real life.
 

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If The Sigil were one of GRR Martins character's, which one would he be? I think theres a good bit of Eddard Stark, with a small slice of Littlefinger in some of his slipperyier arguements.

Obviously, if you could vote for Eddard, you could also vote for Stannis as the two have a lot in common.

PS. Stannis and Eddard are among the most moral characters in the story, so dont think this is a slam. Its all in good fun. ;-)
 

Re: I Have A Question

Son_of_Thunder said:
What I want to know, is there a double standard here on ENWorld? It would appear that a large percentage of the board likes Martin and his work, particularly “A Song of Ice and Fire”. Why can’t such language be used here on the boards? Sepulchrave’s eminently awesome story hour has edited out the F bomb. I think the story hour would be better if It was left in.

Please don’t give me the fictitious “Eric’s Grandma” argument. We know even Eric Noah likes Martin. So why can’t such language be used on the boards? Tell me. The editors of Dragon know that the largest target audience they’re going for is in their twenty’s and thirty’s. It’s their main defense against those who didn’t like issue 300, well that and It’s everywhere anyway so why not here. I would say that ENWorld is like that as well. The Book of Vile Darkness has enjoyed good sales and seen use in many a game.

So why? Why can’t such language be used on ENWorld?

Son of Thunder

I don't know if this has been answered already, but from my perspective, you have apples and oranges.

GRRMartin is a writer who uses foul language in a careful, planned manner to indicate something.

If you took away the Grandma's restriction, the language would flourish ina non-careful, planned manner, and be abused greatly, not by everyone, but by enough to make the profanity offputting and distasteful - profanity for profanity's sake.

I don't think anyone can accuse GRRMartin of using profanity for profanity's sake. If he was, he wouldn't be in Dragon in the first place.
 

Dear Dragon Magazine (and Dragon Magazine Readers),

I'd like to say that I am not a teenager anymore.
My favourite fantasy authors include Michail Bulhakow, Strugacki brothers, Stanislaw Lem (and his Ijon Tichy chronicles), Umberto Eco, Peter Straub, Gene Wolfe, Lewis Carrol and Tolkien.

As an adult, I would like to thank you for taking your time and finally publishing something appealing to my tastes. I appreciate it.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. GRRM is a decent writer - he's by no means great, but he does not commit atrocities as gaming-fantasy genre authors usually do, nor he's as bland and repetitive as mainstream fantasy artists seem to me.

PS.2 IMnsHO.
 

I'm not proud of the fact that I swear like a trooper most of time and this is quite hypocritical of me but:

I dsagree with the language used in the magazine. Children do read it. Our hobby is well known for being attractive to the younger person and I don't think that the publishers should have the right to decode what a minor should or should not be allowed to read.

...end.
 

The Sigil said:
Sidetrack: I still find it amusing that in alternate fantasy worlds, characters are expected to swear like sailors to feel "realistic." I have a circle of friends where at least 70-80% of them do NOT curse like sailors and in fact barely curse at all (and not all of them are pious churchgoers either). To me, profanity feels forced, stilted, and unrealstic. In fact, I see it as an attempt to artificially add appeal to others. It's about as appealing to me as a faux Indian accent - it might be done in the interest of authenticity but usually it just ends up being insulting.

But especially in alternate fantasy worlds, I just don't get why characters have to swear to be "realistic." Why not?

Well, first off, I've only read two series where the characters swear realistically in some time, and one of them is the very series we're discussing. The other is Jordan's "Wheel of Time", where they curse with great frequency...just not OUR curses. "Blood and bloody Ashes" or "The Light Burn You!" are clearly vulgar expressions there, just not in reality. However, since their profanities are not OUR profanities, they tend to be ignored.

However, you seem to laboring under the impression that everyone in "Song of Ice and Fire" curses like a sailor all the time. This is pretty far off the mark. Most of the characters swear little or not at all, and usually only in the heat of the moment (such as finding the results of a terrible slaughter in war, the corpse of a loved one and engaging in mortal combat with a dire enemy). Some do swear much more casually than others, and especially in their own internal monologues. If you had read the story in question, you'll note that "F-bomb" (as you call it) is only used in the characters thoughts, as she recollects her first sexual encounter. The character, Asha, is a rough, crass pirate captain, and daughter of the dead King of the Ironmen. The Ironmen are a rough, dangerous crowd, who rape and pillage the coastlands and are merciless to their enemies. Asha makes it clear that she purely was after physical gratification with her first lover and nothing more. The reflection takes place while talking with a local lord who was once her puppy-love, and holds unrequited and immature feelings for her. At the end of the conversation, she puts a knife to his throat to emphasize that she is an unpleasant, dangerous person.

[Warning: SPOILERS AHEAD HERE]

Now, I find the men of the Iron Isles to be fascinating, but I don't like them...any of them. The eldest brother, known as the Crow's Eye, happily relates sailing all over the world, raping, kidnapping, thieving and pillaging. And these are his virtues that he extols as proof of his need to be king. The more noble younger brother who contends for the crown is still a dangerous man (you realize over the course of the novella), because he is still haunted by wife he beat to death when he discovered that his older brother had cuckolded him. A terrible thing? Yes. But just because you don't like something doesn't mean that it shouldn't be in print. I would find it hard to believe that two of these three characters would never any form of profanity. it just doesn't make sense for the characters.

By contrast, other characters in the book, such as Sansa Stark, would (at least at the outset of the series) faint dead away if she were to hear the "F-bomb" uttered publicly. Many characters never utter a curse, and react quite negatively to their use, such as Brienne of Tarth, for example. GRRM strives for realism with these characters, and real people swear. His world has few pure fantasy elements (and until the second book, almost none at all). This enhances the sense of an alternate history, as opposed to a romantic fiction. Your personal experience may be different, but not mine. I don't curse much, and less so since my children were born, but I still do (and still think them).

Let me turn the question back upon you: Why do you think it's better to be unrealistic in all cases? I'm not suggesting you pepper every story with expletives to enhance them. But the complete absence from all works of fantasy? Why should fantasy be pigeon-holed in this way? Shakespeare spent a great deal of time slinging epithets and curses throughout his work (sometimes for comedy: "I am an ASS!", sometimes not: "Thou jarring ill-breeding mammet!"), both for realism and entertainment. Cursing (including the "F-bomb") is hardly a new practice, depsite what the Victorians might have wanted us to think.

I accept that you find it offensive, lazy and inappropriate. But if you don't find it appropriate in any venue, then I would suggest that you are in the minority.
 

WizarDru said:
Well, first off, I've only read two series where the characters swear realistically in some time, and one of them is the very series we're discussing. The other is Jordan's "Wheel of Time", where they curse with great frequency...just not OUR curses. "Blood and bloody Ashes" or "The Light Burn You!" are clearly vulgar expressions there, just not in reality. However, since their profanities are not OUR profanities, they tend to be ignored.

This brings up an interesting point. When you are writing about a fantasy world that presumably does not speak English, what are the chances that the culture being written about has the same sorts of cultural sensitivities that we do? I consider it rather unlikely, in the same way that folks from the UK consider "bloody" rather coarse but not Americans. That being the case, I think I have to consider Jordan rather more adroit here than Martin when it comes to invoking supposed profanities. Jordan is inventing profinities for his cultures and makes clear that they are profanities by context. By way of comparison, Martin is being lazy in this venue by merely trying to evoke the response to a profanity by merely using one that the reader would be familiar with instead of considering what might be a profanity in his portrayed culture.

I accept that you find it offensive, lazy and inappropriate. But if you don't find it appropriate in any venue, then I would suggest that you are in the minority.

I seem to remember Spencer stating that it doesn't bother him that Martin writes in this way, but it does bother him that it appears in Dragon and Dungeon, which I would have to agree with. These magazines have regular readership, a large part of which (if the letters section of the last Dungeon is any sign) does not want or expect mature content or language in the pages of the magazines to which they have subscribed. I don't think the minority is as small as you make it out to be, else Paizo would not have been force to (albeit snidely) capitulate.
 

Nope. The Feast for Crows use of adult language is not even close to obscenity.

There is no comparison between Martin's fiction and the "adult section for the Book of Vile Darkness."

Yes, Martin's characters have some adult themes in the context of a "Viking" environment. But, everything that happens, is appropriate for the context.

The BoVD is entirely different. And I agree with those who voted against including material from the BOVD in Dragon and Dungeon. (I agree that the BOVD material was "tame" and that I've seen worse in GW Warhammer books, but that is not the point."

Tom

Gizzard said:


Ah, now. Martin is a serious author; he's not just whipping out the F to startle The Sigil. Though, I suppose we wander off into the classic territory of "what is obscenity?" here.
 


Again, for Mr. Decker, I would submit that if you have not gone far enough to offend Sagan Darkside and The Sigil, you have not gone far enough. When the extremists on one end or the other are satisfied, you have not found the middle. It's a principle of popular culture, it's a principle of politics, and it's a principle of commerce.

Give in to their attempts at censorship, and you've abandoned the hope of appealing to a wider and more diverse audience by choosing instead to cater to a fanatical (if vocal) few. Catering to the fanatical few is an extraordinarily poor business model, as you appear to have realized.

For those who don't like what Dragon does, fine. Quit your complaining and move along. Seriously, don't read it if you don't like it. There are literally thousands of other publications out there with the F word (or even people doing the act itself, Bob forbid!) in them for you to attack, and a great many of them are scarring even more children due to their wider circulation, right?

NRG

P.S. My reference to Reader's Digest in my previous post was an attempt to present a forum in which the editors castrate writers' works, not a reference to publishing fiction in general.
 

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