[DRAGON #305] F-bomb dropped, Doc M fascinated.
- Thread starter Dr Midnight
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The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Re: When the work warrants it
--The Sigil
Thank you for weighing in on this matter, Mr. Decker. I disagree with the decision, as I believe that in a magazine intended for "general consumption," such language is never warranted; regardless of "art" or "feel of the world," the concerns of "audience" should be paramount and above the "aesthetic" concerns (call it the "George Carlin's Seven Dirty Words" rule), but I'll agree to disagree with you on this point. Glad to see it was something that was seriously considered. Unfortunate to see that our views diverge. I will drop this thread now - there is no point in continuing as we obviously are proceeding forth from a different set of assumptions and as such cannot meaningfully debate the matter at hand.Jesse Decker said:
--The Sigil
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jgbrowning
Hero
tleilaxu said:
nope. Hindu.
joe b.
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Nothing strengthens a logical position quite like ad hominim attacks.tleilaxu said:
Whether Martin is a good writer or not is a matter of opinion. I am unqualified to offer an opinion on this subject as I have no exposure that I am aware of to his works.
Whether or not Dragon is lucky to have him? Opinion. Again, I am unqualified to offer mine without exposure.
Whether or not an F-Bomb belongs in Dragon? Opinion. I am qualified to offer my opinion as I have been exposed to both Dragon and F-Bombs. My opinion is that it does not belong. My basis for this rests on the assumptions that (a) Dragon is a general consumption magazine and (b) general consumption magazines should apply the "Carlin's Seven Dirty Words" test to material to be placed therein. Since the F-bomb fails that test (by virtue of being on the list), and Dragon is a magazine for general consumption, the conclusion is that the F-bomb does not belong in Dragon.
Now, you are perfectly welcome to have a divergent opinion. You may disagree with either
a.) Dragon is intended for general consumption
or
b.) Carlin's Seven Dirty Words test should be applied to any material to be placed in a publication that is intended for general consumption.
Just please point out that you disagree with my premises (you can even tell me which one - or both - you think are silly) instead of making ad hominim attacks. It will get us all a lot farther and will keep the thread nicer.
--The Sigil
Dagger75
Epic Commoner
Well its early here (2:30am) and I am bored at work so I'll just jump with in 2 feet....
What is this issue with language. I hear this kind of stuff from kids at malls everyday. I work at a helpdesk, the people on the other end of phone swear at me all day.
Yes it is vulgar language, GRRM is writting a novel about a vulgar war started over vulgar pretenses and with vulgar consequenses. ( I sure hope I used the vulgar correctly)
I will personally edit these word: a--, bi---, and even a-hole have been said on network tv for a few years. I don't know, for me I don't like, I don't watch to much TV any more. But this kind of language in a novel doesn't bother me. Well my rambling is done. I had more to say but when I tyed it sounded stupid and probably would have offended somebody.
What is this issue with language. I hear this kind of stuff from kids at malls everyday. I work at a helpdesk, the people on the other end of phone swear at me all day.
Yes it is vulgar language, GRRM is writting a novel about a vulgar war started over vulgar pretenses and with vulgar consequenses. ( I sure hope I used the vulgar correctly)
I will personally edit these word: a--, bi---, and even a-hole have been said on network tv for a few years. I don't know, for me I don't like, I don't watch to much TV any more. But this kind of language in a novel doesn't bother me. Well my rambling is done. I had more to say but when I tyed it sounded stupid and probably would have offended somebody.
Azure Trance
First Post
Dagger75 said:
Don't forget $hyt. It was spoken on a cop drama, perhaps NYPD Blue or Law & Order; all I remember was the character who spoke it was black. I believe it was on a 9 PM slot and ticked many parents off, but the producers believed the situation in which it was said warranted the usage of the word.
Oh, yeah, and I heard Fook on TV too, now that I think of it. It was Saturday Night Live (a Live TV Show) and Gwnyeth Paltrow was playing a role as a black leather gang leader school girl. She was picking on Molly (hands in armpit superstar girl) and yelled it out in a tirade while making fun of her. Censors didn't catch her though
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Skade
Explorer
Perhaps this is beside the point, but what would the real point of using f---, rather than the actual word be? As you said, everyone knows what was said. Could Dragon have found a way to rephrase it entirely? Certainly.
Dragon is a general audience magazine, but I should point out that so is George R.R. Martin. There is no age requirment on buying his, nor Erica Jong, nor any other author who writes to a mature (and I mean mature, not puerile) audience. To simply not spell out the word would be an insult, a rather oblique form of censorship that accomplishes nothing.
Dragon is a general audience magazine, but I should point out that so is George R.R. Martin. There is no age requirment on buying his, nor Erica Jong, nor any other author who writes to a mature (and I mean mature, not puerile) audience. To simply not spell out the word would be an insult, a rather oblique form of censorship that accomplishes nothing.
Gods, some people are easily worked up...
I did not even notice the language.
But Martin is *very much* in place in Fantasy Gaming magazine, he is most influential fantasy author living and some of us do like the literary inspiration for our campaing.
Feels to me publishing the leading fantasy writer (in the authentic form) in the leading *fantasy* gaming magazine is way more important then not offending somebody's 1950's sensibilites...
I did not even notice the language.
But Martin is *very much* in place in Fantasy Gaming magazine, he is most influential fantasy author living and some of us do like the literary inspiration for our campaing.
Feels to me publishing the leading fantasy writer (in the authentic form) in the leading *fantasy* gaming magazine is way more important then not offending somebody's 1950's sensibilites...
Eosin the Red
First Post
First,
Thanks for piping in Jesse.
Second,
Sigil - I happen to be the rare bird that likes both - black knight and white knight stuff. I can see where you are coming from on the dark overshadowing. I think that because it is a flagerent deviation from old standards that you may give it more weight than it has. Thomas Harlan wrote some of the fiction not long ago and it was pretty good.
To be honest I have some of the same gripes you do but from a different angle - I run a humanocentric world so most of the stuff coming out has to be completely overhauled by me before it is usable. I could rant about how I don't use drow or beholders or mind flayers which seem to get the lions share of attention these days but it won't help. A huge part of why I like Martin is because he has such human villians - figurativly and literally.
I can give an opinion on Martians popularity - he is one of the top selling fantasy authors right now. Maybe more than Jordan - and will surely surpass him after the last WOT book. A novella by him will boost the sales of most magazines, short of Time, Newsweek, People status. I am pretty confident that more people read Martin than read Dragon [maybe one of the book folks can pipe up] - quick look A Feast of Crows is not due out till Sept and ranks 268 on Amazons top seller list vs Jordans rank of 2,000+ - Goodkinds 5,500+ - and Martins first book is still holding a rank of 582. B&N ranks them much closer with Jordan leading the pack, go figure. All three are immensly popular.
I don't know if it belongs in Dragon but it is a large part of the Fantasy gaming culture and will boost sales = more revenue. That is a good thing from Piazos POV. So, I am mixed about it being there but again it is better than the gross-out contest in the closed section for the BoVD. I also suspect that it is one of those cross-market ploys to get more people to pick up a D&D book. They buy this mag because it has Martins work...they like the story....next issue is a supplement...they pick that up...lok at a bunch of weird numbers and talk of kicking Jaim Lannisters tail......Sounds fun.......maybe they go pick up a PHB?
Thanks for piping in Jesse.
Second,
Sigil - I happen to be the rare bird that likes both - black knight and white knight stuff. I can see where you are coming from on the dark overshadowing. I think that because it is a flagerent deviation from old standards that you may give it more weight than it has. Thomas Harlan wrote some of the fiction not long ago and it was pretty good.
To be honest I have some of the same gripes you do but from a different angle - I run a humanocentric world so most of the stuff coming out has to be completely overhauled by me before it is usable. I could rant about how I don't use drow or beholders or mind flayers which seem to get the lions share of attention these days but it won't help. A huge part of why I like Martin is because he has such human villians - figurativly and literally.
I can give an opinion on Martians popularity - he is one of the top selling fantasy authors right now. Maybe more than Jordan - and will surely surpass him after the last WOT book. A novella by him will boost the sales of most magazines, short of Time, Newsweek, People status. I am pretty confident that more people read Martin than read Dragon [maybe one of the book folks can pipe up] - quick look A Feast of Crows is not due out till Sept and ranks 268 on Amazons top seller list vs Jordans rank of 2,000+ - Goodkinds 5,500+ - and Martins first book is still holding a rank of 582. B&N ranks them much closer with Jordan leading the pack, go figure. All three are immensly popular.
I don't know if it belongs in Dragon but it is a large part of the Fantasy gaming culture and will boost sales = more revenue. That is a good thing from Piazos POV. So, I am mixed about it being there but again it is better than the gross-out contest in the closed section for the BoVD. I also suspect that it is one of those cross-market ploys to get more people to pick up a D&D book. They buy this mag because it has Martins work...they like the story....next issue is a supplement...they pick that up...lok at a bunch of weird numbers and talk of kicking Jaim Lannisters tail......Sounds fun.......maybe they go pick up a PHB?
JRRNeiklot
First Post
Bah.
What makes a word bad? It's just a word. Suppose I told someone to eat feces instead of the first word that comes to mind? Actually, the term I used seems nastier than the term normally used in such an insult. But one can be said on tv and the other can't? Why is this? They both mean the same thing. It is the intent of a word, rather than the syntax that makes one an insult, not the particular slang used. Damn or dang, both are used to express anger, but one is allowed in most households, the other gets the kid in trouble. Same thing with other words. A word is not bad. people. If you are offended by the context of Martin's writing, fine, but to be offended because he chose one bit of vernacular over another word or phrase that would have had the same meaning is trite.
What makes a word bad? It's just a word. Suppose I told someone to eat feces instead of the first word that comes to mind? Actually, the term I used seems nastier than the term normally used in such an insult. But one can be said on tv and the other can't? Why is this? They both mean the same thing. It is the intent of a word, rather than the syntax that makes one an insult, not the particular slang used. Damn or dang, both are used to express anger, but one is allowed in most households, the other gets the kid in trouble. Same thing with other words. A word is not bad. people. If you are offended by the context of Martin's writing, fine, but to be offended because he chose one bit of vernacular over another word or phrase that would have had the same meaning is trite.
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