[DRAGON #305] F-bomb dropped, Doc M fascinated.

[EricNoah]

Re: Re: I Have A Question

P.P.S. I had never heard much about GRR Martin until a few months ago. I had no impetus to read his works, and after such a big deal everyone is making about how important profanity is to preserving the thrust of his work, I wonder if I should spend the effort.

Henry, don't let this tempest in a teapot stop you from giving A Game of Thrones a go -- the profanity, at least as I recall it, was "few and far between." Certainly nothing that made a huge impact on me as I was reading it.

 

[Cedric]

Profanity serves to create barriers to communication and create lazy oratorical skills.

This is just my opinion...

Profanity has power, because society allows it to have a measure of power.

If you say dang instead of damn, everyone around will have understood what you really "meant" but you are somehow "ok" in saying this word and not the other.

I will continue to monitor my language in public settings and in writings where it is not appropriate, but in truth I find it ridiculous.

Shoot is no more powerful as a word then it's oft censored cousin. And when used as expletives they have the same meaning.

While I agree that profanities being directed at people "**** you!" are rude and uncalled for. The worse things you could ever say to someone do not have any profanities or questionable language in them at all.

I hope for a time when a simple curse word will not have such power over people's thoughts, attitudes and emotions. As a race of intelligent beings, I think we should be above that.

The words that should have that kind of power over us are much more profound.

Love, respect, peace, war, kindness, family, friends....these are just some words that should have an impact on our lives much greater then whatever influence is given to the "f-word".

Cedric

 

[CrazyMage]

First a general statement on words

I have to admit that this whole subject honestly perplexes me. They're just words. I'd rather have my teen know those words but be a nice person than have a clean mouth but be a bully. It's the actions that should matter. (IMO, naturally.)

If my actions reveal who I am (a nice person, etc) how come my words do not? The words I use do reveal something about me. And "just words" have destroyed families and marriages because they are means to convey what we feel and think.

From Rugger

These words only mean something because WE give them meaning...this is something I learned early on. Look at our parents and grandparents. To them, in the society that they were raised, hell and GD were terrible words. And now it’s commonplace. I'll bet my liver (something I value a great deal), that in 15 years, the S-bomb and F-bomb will be so diluted so as to have little or no meaning. Like I said, they only mean anything now because we allow them to. Heck, the episode of South Park that they used the S-bomb was funny not because of the use of the word itself, but because it just went to show how silly it sounds after you hear it for a half hour.

What you're ignoring here is that new vulgar words will arise to take their place. One doesn't remove the whole concept of offensive words; languages just change which words are offensive. So even if the current words become common, doesn't mean there still won't be offensive language. There are people who very much WANT there to be offensive words, because they want to shock and offend. There are less offensive ways to speak about the words discussed in this thread; why does a person chose the offensive vs. the non-offensive?

I have to agree with almost everything The Sigil said. And bringing this back to his main point (which was not "Should Martin be writing this" but "Should this be in Dragon")
I don't want to see this stuff in Dragon. Up until now, that was not a worry. If I wanted to read this kind of stuff, I knew where I could find it. In the end, Dragon is limiting their market. It is no longer "The magazine for DnD"; it is "The magazine for DnD that uses offensive language." That's not going to tip the balance for more readers, but fewer.

Thanks Eric Noah (and Morrus) for starting and maintaining boards that I do want to visit because there are some standards of acceptable behavior.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Re: I Have A Question

Profanity serves to create barriers to communication and create lazy oratorical skills.

You da man, Henry. I was tempted to say the latter, but I was going to be quite rude about it.

P.P.S. I had never heard much about GRR Martin until a few months ago. I had no impetus to read his works, and after such a big deal everyone is making about how important profanity is to preserving the thrust of his work, I wonder if I should spend the effort.

The profanity in the books is almost entirely (iirc) in the dialogue, not in the prose. It is not used by all characters, but by those it makes sense. Those that fit under your line I first quoted.

SD

 

[Ruined]

Re: Re: Re: I Have A Question

Henry, don't let this tempest in a teapot stop you from giving A Game of Thrones a go -- the profanity, at least as I recall it, was "few and far between." Certainly nothing that made a huge impact on me as I was reading it.

I whole-heartedly second this, Henry. I thoroughly enjoyed the books so much, I passed them on to a female coworker in her late fifties, and I wasn't concerned about language or content at all. She didn't even follow fantasy that much, and she was quickly hooked. Now she blames me as we wait for the next book to arrive.

 

[Mercule]

For the most part, I agree with Sigil. Let me see if I can come at it from a different angle, though.

Like it or not, there are connotations to words. Let's take that to its logical end (understand that I do not agree with the use of the words I'm about to throw out, it's for illustation, and I'll edit myself). That means that you don't object to f----t as opposed to gay or queer. Or n----r instead of black or African-American. Or ch--k for Chinese, etc. They are just words, after all.

Maybe saying that Sigil and I have a stupid position is as good as saying that or position is unreasonable or prudish.

Anyway, that should illustrate the connotations of words.

Should they be used? There's usually a better altenative in daily life, but they are. Personally, I'm a _lot_ more offended by cursing (which I consider blasphemous) than cussing (which is simply rude). Still, people do both.

Writers have every right to use whatever words they want in their works. Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" doesn't miss them, nor do Brooks' "Shanara" books, Duncan's "A Man of His Word", or Jordan's "Wheel of Time".

I've never read any of Martin's works, but I love Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" and that would seem... odd without the harsh language. On the other hand, Lumley's Necroscope series kept the first couple of books clean and throwing in the (minor) bad language added nothing to the darkness, in fact it was almost jarring when it did happen.

Still, the real question is whether Dragon should be printing these words. I don't think so. The magazine has traditionally been geared toward an "all ages" audience. Some teens are mature enough for the language to be a non-issue, some aren't. Regardless, the language doesn't belong in Dragon.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with one word every great while, that's not a rating breaker. My concern is that it becomes something like a slippery slope, just as TV did. The language (among other things) that is used on TV today is really, really sad. I would not read a publication that used the language that TV does. If once a year or so, Dragon slips in a cuss word, I'm not going to stop buying it. Of course, I may not hold it in as high regard.

What's my solution? Easy. I really would rather not see fiction in Dragon, anyway, especially as a regular feature. There is absolutely no reason to have vulgar language in Dragon anywhere outside of the fiction, so problem solved.

Note: I could see a case for fiction in Dragon, but I think it should be handled as an ad. Make the book's publisher/author/whatever pay to put the excerpt in the magazine. I can tell you, in my case, the page-count would be better served by putting an ad in than fiction. Both are non-value-added material and at least I look at the ads.

 

[Zenon]

In any event, if the editors of Dragon are still listening, I'm planning on buying #305, which will be my first purchase of a Dragon since #114. Not for the Martin story, however (Martin is greatly overrated) but for the foldout battlemat I'm told the issue contains. Yay!

I was going to make a long rant, but instead-

I also have just recently signed up for a subscription.

As hong would say: "First. Time. EVAR!"

I've been buying Dragon on-and-off for years, but finally gave in and subscribed.

I haven't seen #305 (my subscription starts with #306). Does their printing Martin's excerpt bother me? Nope. As Jesse said, they decided to include it as part of the work of fiction after consideration.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

On the other hand, Lumley's Necroscope series kept the first couple of books clean and throwing in the (minor) bad language added nothing to the darkness, in fact it was almost jarring when it did happen.

Heh, it is amusing you use those books as an example. They are rather clean in language, but they are certainly far from it in imagery. The opening scene with Dragosani alone has caused a number of people I know to close the book for good.

SD

 

[Buttercup]

Re: I Have A Question

So why? Why can’t such language be used on ENWorld?

The simple answer is because this board belongs to Russ Morrisey, and he says so. I don't happen to disagree with him, but even if I did, it wouldn't matter. It's his 'house' so to speak, so he gets to make the rules.


Although I am not personally offended by profanity, many people are, as this thread should clearly show. Regardless of this minor difference of taste, we are all friends here, who try (or should be trying) to treat each other with respect. So even if Russ didn't insist that the board remain suitable for his grandmother to read, it would be the right thing for the rest of us to do, IMO. It is a small thing to take a tad bit of care in our use of language to avoid making our friends uncomfortable.

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

Thanks for the replies Eric and Henry

Thanks for the replies mods.

But I don't think I'm making myself clear. What's the difference between cursing in Martin's world or on ENWorld especially in great story hours like Sep's?

Son of Thunder