Dragon 368 - Death Matters (But Never Happens)

[TheLordWinter]

One suggestion I would make which I've yet to see offered would be to closely examine the roles your PCs have and select monster roles to match. Have a lot of leaders? Throw an encounter with all skirmishers at the party, so that the fewer defenders can't tie them up properly and they reach the Leaders. Have a lot of strikers? A few extra brutes should put the fear into them as their hit points just drop and drop. All PCs should be worried when dealing with multiple enemy artillery, particularly if they have anything which forces movement.

You mentioned you're running the H series, but consider switching some encounters around. The impression I'm getting is that you're not actively looking to gun down characters, but instead just want to see some more suspense in your sessions since the players haven't been close to dying in some time.

Finally you could try to add more skill challenges to combat. The classic example derived from Star Wars, being stuck in a closing trash compactor while fighting off a monster moving around in the trash and disarming the compactor, could be a really intense combat encounter and being crushed by the walls isn't something that any number of surges will help with.

Hope this helps!

 

[Danceofmasks]

Intelligent monsters should have some idea that adventurers get back up when they fall down.
Therefore, they should know that concentrated fire + CdG on a downed PC (until death occurs) is the only way to fight. That is, if they want to live.

Whether that plan goes out the window when actual combat occurs depends on the wits and discipline of the mobs in question, but in a fight to the death, nobody fights to lose.
And failing to coup de grace a PC is fighting to lose.

 

[darkadelphia]

I think CdG downed PCs is cheap and unfun. The only time I really attack downed PCs is when I'm forced to (example, monsters get to make a free attack when bloodied, and is adj to a downed pc). As far as rationalizing it goes, I use this--PCs are exceptional. 99.9+% of denizens of a game world have never faced a "hero" of this sort. It's not that PCs are of the exceptional heroic type that exists independent of them, but that they are the only ones like that. Heroic NPCs use monster rules (1-3 healing surges by tier) meaning that no one else in the universe has the capacity to keep going like the PCs do.

Further, being able to get back up is intended to emulate the cinematic experience. You wind up with a bizarre self-aware cinematic experience when the enemies keep hacking at the downed PCs saying "no way will I fall victim to a dramatic surge of heroic will power!"

 

[Saeviomagy]

If your players aren't running low on surges, then they're seriously outplaying you, or being incredibly lucky.

Or you've got something else going on - you mentioned that they're getting to be too high level for things? That could well be the entire problem right there.

 

[f.e.n]

To answer the 'unfair' CdG complaint:

I CdG players only after one of them has been 'brought back' from unconscious in an encounter. After that, monsters realize that p.c's 'come back' from the dead and mercilessly CdG there opponents if they manage to get them down again. They also will move to kill healers. So, in-encounter intelligence adjustments make for more difficult fights. And definitely is not unfair. 99.9% of undead just want to feast on your flesh. Players being unconscious makes them so much easier to eat and maybe even extra tasty. Haven't you ever seen a Zombie flick? If they knock you down, they're going to eat you. Not nurture you back to health. Those that can't get in the dogpile to feast on your flesh continue the attack on other living members.

As for other enemy types, I'd say 99.9% want to LIVE and will fight accordingly. But you're right. Heroes are heroic and powerful. Enemies should be ruthless and menacing.

 

[darkadelphia]

Well, the DMG says that you should not focus on PCs who are down. This means that the designers did not have merciless CdGs as a part of the intended balance. If you want to play that way, your game, but it's certainly not a part of the intended challenge of an encounter.

 

[keterys]

The designers also suggest _occasionally_ using CdG when it's really appropriate. For example, if you have a recurring villain and you want to make the party really hate him, or the party presents no available threat somehow (like minions who can't go through a wall on the other side with someone dying).

 

[Otterscrubber]

Ya, I play a ranger (with 7 healing surges) and I have to be very smart with my tactics if I don't want to use up all my healing surges before the "big" fight so I'm not on board with the school of thought that there "tons" of healing surges to go around. If you are not a defender then it can be quite easy to run out of healing surges, especially if you are a soft target that the DM likes to focus on. You may be ok for a fight or two, but that 3rd one and after is gonna suck for you.

 

[Benimoto]

Thanks- yeah, I've tried to play monsters to role. They hated shifty kobolds- until the two party fighters barricaded them off in every encounter, marked them, and smacked them down every time they tried to shift. Kobold minions got picked off by the warlock and the shooty ranger.

One thing to be aware of when your fighters move to lock enemies down is the difference between a normal opportunity attack and the fighter's combat challenge attacks. There's probably already a thread posted on this in the 4e rules forum, but to summarize, the combat challenge attacks and opportunity attacks are different. Combat challenges are an immediate action, which you only get once a round. They also don't stop the enemy from moving, like an OA does.

So, in a lot of situations, it's still possible for an enemy to move away from the fighter, and in a group like yours, where monster HP may last a while, it's often not a bad idea.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

@ OP

As a DM you have done your job well if your player characters don´t die. Period.

The only case i let my players die is when they make tactically bad decisions and are unlucky. You should never kill them when they are playing tactically well.
What is the point of playing with good tactics when Eners become harder then?

But you should also do following:

- if they make bad decisions or play out of their role, don´t show mercy. (Attack fallen PC´s etc.) Then your players should be happy.

- no tactics discussions during a fight. This must happen before the combat starts (if possible)...