Dragon 368 - Death Matters (But Never Happens)

[HighTemplar]

I guess we've all had different experiences.

I'm a pretty savage DM that really like to put the PC teams though hard situations, and so far in 4e, for all my encounters I gaged savantly the encounter so that they were hard, fun and mattered.

My observations tho showed that
1) The combats are NOT shorter than in 3.xe
2) The healing surges must be infinites pools unless you're going though a dungeaon and the party has a deadline
3) You just can't take people down if your players play good teamwork(metagaming?:[)

Seriously, once I decided to put an 8 player party (lvl ~18)though a massive trial of encounters just so they would be healing surge depleted when the real boss dragon fight arrived. Forget it. 3 warlords and one paladin/cleric made me forget about trying that ever after.

To be honest, aside from stun locking the PCs and scaring them to death with an elder blue dragon's thunderclap attack, I didn't even succeed at knocking one down.

I'm now splitting my party in 2 groups for better playability and I'm thinking about using more numerous foes than a really strong one, because it's so much easier for the PCs to take a big one down with mobility and strategy on the new 4e system.(tactlord's overpowered)

seriously, one warlord could completely heal his whole crew with these four powers.
-warlord's banner
-renew the troops
-defensive rally
-stand the fallen
I now feel lucky my tactlord only took 2 of these.

Then just for kicks when someone is bloodied, he could use
-inspiring word x3
-aid the injured
-inspiring reaction
-lion s roar
No wonder why he didn't take any of those just inspiring word does the job solid.
Not even mentionning stuff like lead the attack and thunderous fury combined with the tactincal warlord class feature and the combat commander feat.

And since this thread is about death and I feel like venting, I REALLY hate the realism of a warlord healing people by screaming at them to wake up. I wanted to rule out that a warlord cannot heal allies when they're unconsious but in the end chose not to. The healing system is cool, but sometimes far-fetched.

 

[Ahwe Yahzhe]

From reading what the OP has written, it sounds like your monsters aren't working tactically as well as the PC's are.

So have a think about this:

Are your monsters ganging up on PC's, or are they spreading out and attacking everyone at once?

Are you taking advantage of movement powers and high speed monsters to go after the weaker members of the party?

Personally, I have a hard time running monsters to their best ability. I have a real reluctance to really go after characters and try and kill them - I think I'm slightly afraid of what might happen if I kill someone's character.

I don't think the 4e system is at fault here quite as much as you do. Sure, PC's can get back up again - but you have to remember that monster tactics are in your hands. If you want to play smart - do so! Have the monsters fall back, pick up reinforcements, run for help, get behind cover and so on.

Also - make sure you go over the rules for healing surges, check that your players have the right amount and that they're using them correctly. Characters certainly don't have an 'infinite' number, and it may be that they're getting the rules long, which continues the problem.

If your players are willing to take OA's to lend another character a chance to use their Second Wind, then all credit to them - but smart enemies are going to take advantage of this and make sure they mob up properly.

What classes and races are your players playing, and how many do you have?

Great recommendations. And yes, it was a few sessions before we figured out that the three death saving throws are per encounter, not per negative hit point dip. My players are savvy, and the paladin and clerics wisely hold back a couple of Lay on Hands and Cure Light Wounds, not using them when their companion is bloodied, but until the moment they are dying. (They understand the math of "bonus" healing on dying characters, since all healing starts at 0 regardless of the negative hp level.)

Thanks- I know I'm outnumbered by the smart guys around the table - these are a bunch of army guys here in Baghdad who have trained in and used squad tactics in real life. As best as I'm able, I try to have the monsters fight according to role, and mob, shoot and skirmish accordingly. For the first four levels, we've had a party of two fighters, two rangers (Shooty and Stabby) and a warlock. Not very strong in healing, but that didn't seem to bug them. I let the players pick their character classes, but I always tell them to take a look at the current party and give them a couple of recommendations. But with continuous unit rotations (I'm here for a full year), we've had also had the wizards, warlocks and clerics come and go from the party as well. (Strangely, no rogues yet. Huh.) Currently, the party is pretty well-balanced, just as they reach 7th level: two fighters, one ranger, one paladin, and one cleric. In a couple of weeks, we'll have one fighter, one ranger, one cleric, and a swordmage(possibly.) So they should still be a pretty balanced party. I'm expecting a new player or two, and I'd recommend they add a wizard, warlock, or paladin, in that order. Any thoughts?

 

[keterys]

If your players are far more tactically minded than you, you could always give them a handicap to spice things up.

Increasing the damage of creatures is probably a decent step to take in your particular case. Even something fairly mild like +2 damage per tier (half that for minions) will make a very big difference.

 

[Ahwe Yahzhe]

Nope

In our campaign, we've managed to avoid deaths at every session -- but just barely. Each session has had at least one battle, if not two, where a couple of people have been down to rolling death saves, and have got to the point where they're counting down to the final dirtnap. The entire party has had to go into emergency mode to fix things.

Which is just the right level of drama and tension for storytelling, as far as I'm concerned. Just enough danger that a screwup can make it scary, but enough that some concerted teamwork and sacrifice can get you out of it.

I haven't encountered anything at all like what the OP is concerned about.

More to the point, it almost feels as if the OP is reminiscing about the "good old days" when a player death is the reward for a GM's job well done, or some sort of nonsense. A good GM knows they're keeping the players on their toes, and keeping the story nicely tense, when the occasional player still dies, sorta thing. I guess that's one way to go, if people like.

Me, I'd rather kill that concept than needlessly kill a player.

Nope- that's not it, but I understand how my frustration in my post might read that way. It's actually that the players are playing well, and know that they can't die, even if they make a tactical mistake or two or have bad luck. Like you, I've had several battles that end with one or more players down, but not dead. The first couple of times it was suspenseful, but since then they've figured it out, tactically saving the Lay on Hands (minor action) for dying comrades instead of when they are bloodied (that's what the Second Winds are for.)

I agree with the earlier post that cutting back the number of surges might just shorten the game day, but they already do this when daily powers run low. I've tried clock management (twelve hours between extended rests) but I don't like railroading them with random encounters and "ticking timebombs" that don't fit the campaign storylines. I'm not sure what will work, but let's assume I'm not going to "beat" the players tactically, but play monsters according to their roles.

 

[James McMurray]

If you're not going to play tactically, add time clocks to adventures, or increase the number of encounters (thus breaking up rests), you might as well just resign yourself to death never being feared. There are many ways to make a game deadlier, but you've already said no to them.

 

[Ahwe Yahzhe]

One of the things I find interesting about monsters in 4E is because of roles, in many encounters you actually have "monster partys" in a sense. Make sure you take advantage of a humanoids racial abilty. If your character's don't hate Kobold's "shiftyness" after a few encounters, with them something is wrong.

Also make sure you look at the encounter level mix in the DMG 104. If anything that seems understated. In KotS the first major boss encounter was even higher then party level +3.

Thanks- yeah, I've tried to play monsters to role. They hated shifty kobolds- until the two party fighters barricaded them off in every encounter, marked them, and smacked them down every time they tried to shift. Kobold minions got picked off by the warlock and the shooty ranger. (Stabby ranger just charged the biggest, baddest looking dude he could get at.) I'm hesitant to throw challenges at the party four or five levels above them. Besides being a blatant TPK along the lines of, "So combat is too easy? Survive THIS, suckers!", it also accelerates the advancement of the PCs from the wagonloads of XP they get...

 

[KarinsDad]

Our party - too - fears death....and we have two leaders!

I agree with the OP. The first 5 encounters or so, we had PCs fall over unconscious. Since then (about 50 more encounters), it hasn't happened. And, our DM is using the H series modules.

We have two Strikers instead of two Leaders. And, all 5 of our PCs have ranged attacks. So, our team is real effective in changing the Action Economy of an encounter, just by having multiple PCs focusing on the bloodied NPCs. I think party makeup combined with party tactics makes up the difference.

I've come to the conclusion that 4E survival is all about offense over defense or healing. The faster you can take out foes, the fewer cures you need, the less you fall unconscious.

 

[Bodhiwolff]

(snip) Like you, I've had several battles that end with one or more players down, but not dead. The first couple of times it was suspenseful, but since then they've figured it out, tactically saving the Lay on Hands (minor action) for dying comrades instead of when they are bloodied (that's what the Second Winds are for.) (snip)

And this is where you lose me completely.

You're saying that you've had "several battles" that end with one or more players down, but not dead.

You've *had* the tense, dramatic moments.

And then you say that they've worked out a mechanic or two to help them out of those situations, so *poof* -- all of the worry goes away. HUH?!

Sure, they've got Lay on Hands. And surely there will be situations where the paladin is too far away to get there in time, or is kept busy by monsters, or is tripped/grappled/grabbed so as to stop him from moving and laying his hands on the fallen comrade?

I mean, so they have one sure-fire way to help themselves in a bad situation (Lay on Hands). They also have healing potions that others can administer, etc. There are mechanics to aid a fallen comrade, sure. But depending on those mechanics is a bad idea, 'cause you can't trust the monsters to just *let* you use them!

Smart monsters can tie up your friends for a couple of rounds, causing those saving-throws to start to accumulate.

All of which creates dramatic tension and excitement.

Just because they've figured out a mechanic or two to help them when the chips are down doesn't mean that the system is broken, or that they can relax when people drop to the floor.

Unless, of course, the monsters act like complete dolts, and simply let their friends walk up and help their fallen comrades in a variety of fashions. In which case I-as-a-hero wouldn't be too worried either, 'cause I'm fighting against species which need to be saved from their own stupidity, Darwin-style.

 

[Ahwe Yahzhe]

Great feedback!

Well, that's clearly an important part about your 'problem'.
If my players are playing smart and fighting well as a team (both of which rarely happens) then they're not really in danger of dying except due to extremely unlucky circumstances.
I consider that a good thing. Shouldn't the players be rewarded for playing clever?
My favorite sessions aren't the ones where a pc died it's the sessions where a pc (or several pcs) _almost_ died. The most gratifying battles are the ones that were close calls but were won by the pcs without anyone having to be raised from the dead. YMMV.

Good point - the most memorable moments we've had is where the PCs wiped out a gang of bugbears in one and half rounds (the surviving bugbears ran for their lives.) Or where they saved the village from being sacked and burnt down. Or where an old enemy, Agrid (yes, the gnome from H1) returns, but the social situation prevents them from killing him on sight. But the most poignant is where they returned from KotS victorious over Kalarel, but with two party members dead. (These two died because of the special encounter feature and being killed as they were dragged through the portal, not because of going negative bloodied or three failed saves.) A lot of NPCs had strong reactions to the news, and roleplaying the heroes' celebration in Winterhaven was a bittersweet affair that took the better part of a game session.

That surprises me a bit. At least the first two dungeons in H2 can quickly turn into death-traps if the party retreats and rests, giving the enemies time to regroup. Since their main goal should be to free the prisoners, I can think of several excellent ways to put the pcs under pressure...
Well, if the drama in your game solely relies on the 'fear of death' then you may indeed have a problem.
How do your players think about the issue of death, btw? Do they enjoy the game or would they prefer a harder challenge?

Well, I've had to short-cut them through some encounters and adjust the encounter levels because they're already hitting 7th level now (we're running H1/2/3 with FR conversions and some other plot lines.) I like your line of thinking with the prisoners, since they've been chasing after the Bloodreavers (now with Ogres!) for three days straight now... My players have a lot of rotation, and have enjoy the roleplaying opportunities character death provides. They like the chance to play new characters, even. But most worringly is the feeling that they can run combat by the numbers, and if they use their resources efficiently, they will never die. Combat becomes an inevitability, with memorable moments of extraordinary feats.

 

[Ahwe Yahzhe]

Ask the players maybe-

And this is where you lose me completely.

You're saying that you've had "several battles" that end with one or more players down, but not dead.

You've *had* the tense, dramatic moments.

And then you say that they've worked out a mechanic or two to help them out of those situations, so *poof* -- all of the worry goes away. HUH?!

Sure, they've got Lay on Hands. And surely there will be situations where the paladin is too far away to get there in time, or is kept busy by monsters, or is tripped/grappled/grabbed so as to stop him from moving and laying his hands on the fallen comrade?

I mean, so they have one sure-fire way to help themselves in a bad situation (Lay on Hands). They also have healing potions that others can administer, etc. There are mechanics to aid a fallen comrade, sure. But depending on those mechanics is a bad idea, 'cause you can't trust the monsters to just *let* you use them!

Smart monsters can tie up your friends for a couple of rounds, causing those saving-throws to start to accumulate.

All of which creates dramatic tension and excitement.

Just because they've figured out a mechanic or two to help them when the chips are down doesn't mean that the system is broken, or that they can relax when people drop to the floor.

Unless, of course, the monsters act like complete dolts, and simply let their friends walk up and help their fallen comrades in a variety of fashions. In which case I-as-a-hero wouldn't be too worried either, 'cause I'm fighting against species which need to be saved from their own stupidity, Darwin-style.

Maybe I should ask the players how they're still feeling the dramatic tension if they go into dying territory (increasingly rare) during combat. They're certainly not worried about being bloodied. As for stupid monsters, maybe I am holding back... I haven't had a bad guy try a coup-de-grace yet, with 50+ encounters in just this campaign.

But I have to disagree with you about monsters relaxing, with so many healing options available: the dwarven fighter with minor action Second Wind, a couple of potions of healing, the paladin with lay on hands and temporary hit points coupled with his encounter attacks, to say nothing of the cleric with two ranged healing words per encounter, plus cure light wounds and cure serious wounds at 6th level. Even if they've got a character on the ropes and cut off from his allies, a heroic character will willingly take the attack of opportunity (just a basic attack, after all) to bring him back. So they save these powers to take advantage of the healing "bonus" (the damage taken from zero to negative whatever is free healing) from using these powers once they've dropped instead of when they're bloodied. Then again, if a character drops, the bad guys immediately move on to attack the most dangerous standing character instead of pausing for the coup-de-grace.

What I'm getting from a lot of great responses is:
-- Your combats are more dramatic than you as DM think, even though they are not worried about dying.
-- Combat isn't the only source of drama in the game (yes, I know.)
-- Don't punish players for playing well tactically (Trust me, I'm not- I'm rewarding them for kicking ass.)
-- Don't be limited by strict monster roles - pull out all the stops tactically. (No stupid monsters.)
-- Don't fear the coup-de-grace.
-- Don't cut healing capability; instead put more encounters in the game day by enforcing the 12-hour limit on extended rests, make quests time-constrained, and throw encounters at PCs if they try to wait it out. (I've been trying this, and the verdict's still out on this one after only a couple sessions...
-- Of the options I floated, most don't favor fiddling with the rules, except for upping the damage on monster attacks by +1/+2, or not healing all hit points after an extended rest, just healing surges.

Any other recommendations are welcome- I just wish I could watch one of all these other games with all the TPKs and character deaths, just so I can see how it this actually unfolds.

-AY