Dragon 368 - Death Matters (But Never Happens)

[Yavathol]

In my experience, PCs under level 4 or 5 are still relatively vulnerable, though certainly less so than in previous editions. I game in a large group with 6 players, and there is almost always someone available to slip a healing potion to a downed PC before they fail three death saves.

Having said that, going down and then getting back up is extremely dangerous...you might have gone down next to a monster with an aura of cold, 5 pts damage automatically in your turn. Chances of you getting to -bloodied before the monster is lured away is pretty small, but if someone slips you a healing potion when the monster is still near by, then I wouldn't give good odds on your surviving until your next turn...

But I do agree with the original poster, and think it would be nice if having a large party wasn't quite such an advantage...like if they'd designed the game around a standard party size of 5 players instead of 4.

 

[Nytmare]

We've had maybe a dozen 4e adventures so far with my group. 3 TPKs, and I'd guess maybe 20 deaths all told. The majority of these deaths were, from my opinion, the players not recognizing that this wasn't 3rd Ed, and that they couldn't just roll over kobolds and bugbears without getting scratched.

This is, however, a change from our previous campaign of E6, where we used the death flag rules, where none of my players ever worried about dying, and where there were still plenty of ways for the characters to fail and stress out without the specter of death hanging over their heads.

 

[darkadelphia]

- no tactics discussions during a fight. This must happen before the combat starts (if possible)...

I'm happy to let my players discuss tactics during battle--they'd just better hope the monsters don't speak common ;-)

 

[Danceofmasks]

Speaking is a free action .. so monsters will talk, and PCs get to respond to what they're saying, too.

 

[That One Guy]

My coppers...

Played in a 4e demo game - TPK. DM didn't know the recharge rules, so we got rocked.

Ran a 4e homebrew game w/ the pre-4e stuff. They feared death. And hobgoblins. No one ever died, but a lot got close.

Played a 4e game up to almost level 7. Feared death constantly. Then the DM fudged things so my character would not die and later said he would not kill our characters. That took the fear of death out of me, but not my character.

Played in a two-shot 4e game to teach some people how to play. Played a fighter. Got bloodied a lot. The DM wasn't going to kill us, but I was still pretty scared of death.

Played Kobold Hall and started KotS w/ a group. The white dragon nearly killed us. Good luck on our part was really all that prevented three of us from going down. Irontooth was hard. Admittedly, we used metagame tactics. We went down, but no one died (I think someone got 1 point away from negative bloodied, though).

So, I think it is harder to die for no reason, but I still think death is quite possible.

 

[HighTemplar]

With game rule modifications you can do a lot. You can do something simple like change the 3 death saves rule to just 2. You could remove the death saves rule and replace it with something like, "Roll a d20, a natural 5 or lower means you die, 6-19 means no change, 20 means you stabalize".

One idea I like (but don't personally impose) is you could use negative hitpoints as a form of long term damage and heal it as you would ability score damage in 3.X.
For example, I have a character with 50 Max HP and he is knocked down to -10. His max HP available is now 40HP. The next day, his max HP becomes 41HP...

Those are good ideas, Even changing to one failed save would make your world brutal.

Here's another idea. PCs can fail only 3 death saves EVER. That'll scare them off. You might also want to give them some special milestones where they would regain one failed save, such as gaining a lvl or whatever.

note: this is such a hardcore idea ^^ i'm starting to like it.
Dwarf says to party:"Ey lads, Next time I fall, make sure you pull me back on my feet quick as lightning, I've been visiting dreamland quite often recently and I feel like There might be no coming back next time!"

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Speaking is a free action .. so monsters will talk, and PCs get to respond to what they're saying, too.

there is a difference between tactical discussions and shouting commands...

 

[MrMyth]

But I do agree with the original poster, and think it would be nice if having a large party wasn't quite such an advantage...like if they'd designed the game around a standard party size of 5 players instead of 4.

They did, actually - 5 PCs is the standard party size assumed by the rules. Solos, for example, are balanced against a group of 5 PCs.

 

[zillah]

I think that you have to look at higher levels as well. In higher levels, it will be harder and harder for you to die, and why not? your a freakin hero, and if you are an epic hero your death better be epic!
At low levels(mostly heroic tier) it is very easy to die. Hell, the cleric that was 3 squares from me got burned up by fire beetles in 1 round from full to death. Thats what happens when beetles AOE and your in all 3 of them. So, yes, death can still happen. it still does happen.

I like the new way to die, I mean, if you are at 200 hp, why should you die at -10? I always thought that was really crappy. Although I have never been in an epic campaign in 4.0, I will say that an encounter will most likely do 30-50 points of damage in 1 round if not more. Thats enough to kill someone, and thats an epic death.

 

[keterys]

Actually, at higher level you're much more likely to encounter "save or die" type effects like the beholder's eye ray and a _lot_ more likely to get hit by auras and area effects. In addition, your team mates are more likely to be dazed or otherwise hindered from helping someone out as quickly.

Even if you have a buffer of 60 or 70 hp before you actually die, dropping with ongoing 15 and in an aura of 15 per round and a rechargeable area effect that does 30... well, suddenly things look a lot more dangerous.