Dragon Editorial: Fearless

[hong]

So it's not a bug, it's a feature.

Yeah, its turning out pretty much exactly how I imagined as well. No risks.

D&D is risky?

No dread.

There is plenty of dread. It just plays out over 2 or more die rolls instead of 1. Trust me.

Lots of tactical illusionism.

D&D isn't an illusion?

Heroic feats attempted not because the situation demands you take the risk, but just because you can and because well they really aren't risks.

Of course they aren't risks, just as elves aren't real. But for some silly reason people keep thinking the risks are real, so changing the rules to disabuse them of this notion is to be encouraged.

Even players not being able to make sound judgements because the game universe bears so little relationship to the real one.

However, the game universe now bears even more resemblance to the universe of the action movie. Since geeks know far more about the physics of action movies than the real world, as evidenced by the several incontrovertible proofs of how Darth Maul would so pwn the Borg Cube and not vice-versa, this can only lead to greater versimi verimis vesrimil believability than ever before.

The worst sort of cornball action movie as the standard of dramatic tension.

You mean the best sort of cornball action movie.

It's all there. Nerfworld. Everything bounces. Everything is now the 'I can jump off the 60' cliff because it can't really hurt me' problem.

My suspicion is that the game is something like Diablo II now. The only thing that kills you is boredom.

Hm. Are you suggesting that 4E will live as long as Diablo II?

 

[hong]

I think my biggest problem with this set up is the heroic feats aren't really heroic anymore. They're just everyday routine tasks.

Exactly. They _are_ routine everyday tasks for people whose job it is to be heroic, ie PCs. For the average joe who doesn't dare to venture outside his local point of light, they will still be incredible.

 

[Voss]

Exactly. They _are_ routine everyday tasks for people whose job it is to be heroic, ie PCs. For the average joe who doesn't dare to venture outside his local point of light, they will still be incredible.

Yeah, but I don't consider that a good thing. I don't want to play 'superheroes in chainmail'. Heroic-Paragon-Epic doesn't suggest Wolverine-Superman-God to me.

And your above post, while quoting Celebrim...
I'm going to be polite and just say that there should be real risks to the characters.

 

[hong]

Yeah, but I don't consider that a good thing. I don't want to play 'superheroes in chainmail'.

So remove XP gain and stay at 1st level, while ramping up the opposition.

And your above post, while quoting Celebrim...
I'm going to be polite and just say that there should be real risks to the characters.

1. There can be no "real risk" to a character, because a character is a flight of fancy with no independent existence and nothing at stake. Perception of risk is everything, and that perception lies in the mind of the player, who is the one with the ability to make decisions and a stake in the outcomes for the character. Many tools are available to manipulate that perception of risk, and the crudest tool of all is "roll a save; if you fail, you die". The SECOND crudest tool of all is "make a skill check; if you fail, you die".

2. Did you not see the line in the article where the character has died already in the game?

 

[Incenjucar]

Yeah, but I don't consider that a good thing. I don't want to play 'superheroes in chainmail'. Heroic-Paragon-Epic doesn't suggest Wolverine-Superman-God to me.

And your above post, while quoting Celebrim...
I'm going to be polite and just say that there should be real risks to the characters.

:\

Dude.

At epic levels, yeah, you can kill and become gods.

Though it's more like Conan-Spiderman-Superman. Becoming a god is an epic destiny.

 

[Voss]

So remove XP gain and stay at 1st level, while ramping up the opposition.

How does that solve anything? I mean that seriously. You're starting out super, apparently. All sense of verisimilitude and believability is already gone.

1. There can be no "real risk" to a character, because a character is a flight of fancy with no independent existence and nothing at stake. Perception of risk is everything, and that perception lies in the mind of the player, who is the one with the ability to make decisions and a stake in the outcomes for the character.

I don't really seen the point of playing goofy semantics with this, but if you insist, there isn't any perception of risk, either, on the part of anyone involved. Its being presented as Don't think, don't worry, your character won't really be harmed, action, action, action!!! If I were an adrenaline junkie on a sugar high, that might appeal to me (though I suspect I'd be jumping out of planes, or something, and not sitting at a table). And if it does appeal to others thats fine, but don't be too surprised if some people show a negative reaction.

Many tools are available to manipulate that perception of risk, and the crudest tool of all is "roll a save; if you fail, you die". The SECOND crudest tool of all is "make a skill check; if you fail, you die".

Neither of which is the point, or even desirable. But I don't want 'I bull through the traps without thought or care because they are completely incapable of doing permanent damage', either.

2. Did you not see the line in the article where the character has died already in the game?

Once. For having a death wish and acting on it. Yay.


@Incenjur, true I should have been more clear. I was exaggerating a little and implying that it looks like godmode turns on for good once you hit level 21. Not the level 30 epic destiny where you retire as a god.

 

[Incenjucar]

Dude, you're already a street level super hero at LEVEL 1.

That is what "Heroic" means.

Pig Farmer Level is no longer the starting point.

You are already kicking butts and taking names.

Later the butts just get bigger and the names longer and harder to pronounce.

You are never Joe Schmoe in 4E, because Joe Schmoe would wet himself when faced with the twenty goblins you can face at level 1.

 

[hong]

How does that solve anything? I mean that seriously. You're starting out super, apparently. All sense of verisimilitude and believability is already gone.

Says someone who's never fought PL+4 enemies. Pah, you've obviously been mollycoddled too much. Grow some chest hair, mang!

I don't really seen the point of playing goofy semantics with this, but if you insist, there isn't any perception of risk, either, on the part of anyone involved. Its being presented as don't think, don't worry, your character won't really be harmed, action, action, action!!! If I were an adrenaline junkie on a sugar high, that might appeal to me (though I suspect I'd be jumping out of planes, or something, and not sitting at a table). And if it does appeal to others thats fine, but don't be too surprised if some people show a negative reaction.

The point, for those who apparently refuse to grasp it, is that if the default scenario as presented in the books (and here) fails to satisfy, there are plenty of DM tools available to change that scenario. This can even be done with minimal adjustment to the rules as they are written. Encounter framing, development of PC-NPC relationships, exploration of character motivations and desires, explication of dire consequences if things go wrong; all can make the most foolhardy character think twice before putting his hand/head in the hole.

Neither of which is the point, or even desirable. But I don't want 'I bull through the traps without thought or care because they are completely incapable of doing permanent damage', either.

1. So change it. Are you so incapable a DM as to be unable to conjure the appropriate atmosphere of foreboding without crude tools like "make a save; if you fail, you die"?

2. "Permanent damage"?

Once. For having a death wish and acting on it. Yay.

And so it is possible to have "permanent damage" in the game, yes?

 

[Celebrim]

This can even be done with minimal adjustment to the rules as they are written.

Love that extensibility. There is just nothing it won't fix.

It ought to be 4E's new motto.

"New and Improved"*

*Some assembly required.

 

[hong]

Love that extensibility. There is just nothing it won't fix.

It ought to be 4E's new motto.

"New and Improved"*

*Some assembly required.

No, no, no.

"New and Improved"*

*Some deconstruction required for those who want pretending to be elves to be risky.