Dragon Editorial: Fearless

[JohnSnow]

That's either an allusion to, or direct plagiarism from, Go Rin No Sho (Book of Five Rings). "Death is a feather, duty is a mountain."

(Given what I think about Jordan, I submit that it's the latter.)

It's not nice to speak ill of the dead. I submit the former.

Jordan was very upfront about cribbing large parts of the Wheel of Time from real-world cultures, myths and legends. And among the cultures on which he drew heavily were those of the East, like China and Japan. The ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai is nearly a Yin-Yang, deliberately unbalanced by eliminating the "dots" to represent the disharmony between male and female power in his world. The borderlands have strong eastern influences, from names to topknots, to their training methods, and yes, their sayings.

Rand and Lan carry what are basically Samurai swords, for cryin' out loud! Jordan was blatantly alluding to real world culture because "The Wheel of Time turns and Ages come and go." It's supposed to be "our world." Someone asked Jordan what the folks in the Wheel of Time world call their planet and Jordan stared at them in disbelief before simply replying "Earth."

He even makes some vague references to things in our century. For instance, in The Eye of the World, Thom Merrilin is asked by Egwene to tell them "about Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire" and "his daughter Salya walking among the stars."

Having trouble with the reference?

Lenn = "John Glenn" (see note*) or "Lunar Escape Module (LEM)"
Belly of an eagle = "The Eagle has landed."
Salya = "Salyut Rocket."

Of course, they're allusions, rather than being direct. Then there's Mat's floppy hat and his spear-staff which looks like Gungnir and is engraved with two ravens and the lines about "Thought" and "Memory." Oh yeah, and all the prophecies indicating Mat will lose an eye...

He's hardly subtle, but "plagiarism" is pretty harsh. It would be more accurate to say "clothing old bones with new flesh."

Besides, I've read Go Rin No Sho, and I can't find that quote anywhere in it. I know it's a traditional saying in Japan, but while Musashi talks about many things, I can't find any real discussion of "duty" in the book. Maybe I just missed it.


* Before anyone corrects me, I'm fully aware that the astronauts on Apollo 11 were Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong, but Glenn was the first American to orbit the Earth, and it would be very believable for the story to become garbled and joined into one.

 

[vazanar]

I'm not sure what you're implying here. But by all accounts Jordan was a man of impeccable character.

Jordan was extremely well read, and was always open about the influences in the Wheel of Time. He has always said in numerous interviews that the entire series is an amalgam of real world myths and cultures throughout history. Thats one reason the series has such resonance with so many fans.

Of course he probably got it from the Book of Five Rings. Jordan's never said otherwise, AFAIK. So what?

Yeah lets avoid going down the copying road. If you are well enough read of older books pretty much every idea in current media is somewhere from them. It just matters how much you know of the older versions. (Which of course lead to the funny concept of some of my students thinking Gandalf's fight with the Balrog a copy of Star Wars)

Jordan's whole concept of WOT was reusing old stories and books. Heck his Aiel tactics lesson came right out of Zulu. However, that was the intention.

 

[vazanar]

He even makes some vague references to things in our century. For instance, in The Eye of the World, Thom Merrilin is asked by Egwene to tell them "about Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire" and "his daughter Salya walking among the stars."

Having trouble with the reference?

Lenn = "John Glenn" or "Lunar Escape Module (LEM)"
Belly of an eagle = "The Eagle has landed."
Salya = "Salyut Rocket."

Of course, they're allusions, rather than being direct. Then there's Mat's floppy hat and his spear-staff which looks like Gungnir and is engraved with two ravens and the lines about "Thought" and "Memory." Oh yeah, and all the prophecies indicating Mat will lose an eye...

He's hardly subtle, but "plagiarism" is pretty harsh. It would be more accurate to say "clothing old bones with new flesh."

They do tend to be all over the story, the scene after the sword in the stone, when Thom talks how he might be the hero of the next generations version of the story. Raising Kings and having fire fly from his hand. Merillin --> Merlin.

 

[Celebrim]

Though in most of the mid-level or higher games of 1e and 2e I was in, players cheated and gave themselves Rings of Regeneration to avoid the problem. Man, there were some Xmas trees back then. No wealth by level guidelines can lead to some pretty bad munchkinry.

What do you mean here by 'cheat'? You mean that they mysteriously found 'rings of regeneration' on thier character sheet, or that they 'forgot' to subtract damage from attacks? Either case says nothing about how 1e played when you were sticking to the rules.

Now, if you merely mean, 'All high level players wanted regeneration', I agree. But I don't see how they 'gave themselves' rings of regeneration. DM's could very easily control the acquisition of items in 1e so that 'kits' like 3e's big 6 never became a problem. I never saw a 1e fighter with gauntlets of ogre power and a belt of storm giant strength (or any of the better belts), despite the obvious utility of the combo.

And what do 'wealth by level' guidelines have to do with anything? I've had 1e characters worth more than a million gold pieces, but I couldn't have just walked out and bought a 'ring of regeneration' or a 'staff of power' simply because I wanted these things. I had to find them, and I was only going to find them if the DM thought they were appropriate things to let loose in his campaign.

I personally think alot of the problem with 'hit points as a per encounter resource' could be fixed simply by making 'Craft Wand' apply only to arcane spells. You could still burn through treasure to heal up, but you likely wouldn't do it except before important fights that you didn't have time to rest up for.

 

[ruleslawyer]

It's not nice to speak ill of the dead. I submit the former.
He's hardly subtle, but "plagiarism" is pretty harsh. It would be more accurate to say "clothing old bones with new flesh."

Not much new flesh there. The sentence is almost exactly identical to the proverb.

The quote comes from Go Rin No Sho, and became a proverb of the samurai. Now, it's certainly fair to suggest that since it became a proverb of sorts, that it's now such a generalized expression that Jordan isn't really stealing it, any more than references to casting the first stone or the mote in another's eye in a book would really be plagiarism per se. But this kind of naked statement minus attribution strikes me much more as ripping off than adding richness.

But as I said, I don't think much of Jordan's writing. And the quote you cited about (G)Lenn and Salya[ut], etc. just reinforces the impression that this is reference to other sources done incredibly badly and to little purpose. Heck, even his modification of the aphorism about giri is unbelievably clumsy compared to the original.

But now we're severely off topic. My apologies.

 

[Celebrim]

Not much new flesh there. The sentence is almost exactly identical to the proverb.

The quote comes from Go Rin No Sho, and became a proverb of the samurai. Now, it's certainly fair to suggest that since it became a proverb of sorts, that it's now such a generalized expression that Jordan isn't really stealing it, any more than references to casting the first stone or the mote in another's eye in a book would really be plagiarism per se. But this kind of naked statement minus attribution strikes me much more as ripping off than adding richness.

But as I said, I don't think much of Jordan's writing. And the quote you cited about (G)Lenn and Salya[ut], etc. just reinforces the impression that this is reference to other sources done incredibly badly and to little purpose. Heck, even his modification of the aphorism about giri is unbelievably clumsy compared to the original.

But now we're severely off topic. My apologies.

I certainly don't think that Jordan is a great novelist, but I think at this point you've gone too far. There are alot of valid critiques of Jordan. But yours is an excessively petty and argumentative one. And I know all about excessively petty arguments.

Jordan is not a particularly inventive writer. The whole first half of 'Eye of the World' reads like a blatant ripoff of Tolkien. However, the same could be said of quite a few fantasy author's early efforts. And it is true that alot of the stuff in his novel is taken directly from other sources, and that people don't know this might be disappointed to discover that he's not as original as they might like to believe. But I think that plagarism takes it too far. I'm as familiar with Tolkien's language as anyone who doesn't have the last name, and if Jordan had have used similar phrasing at any point I would have noticed.

Paraphrasing 'Go Rin No Sho' is no more plagarism than paraphrasing the Bible or Greek myths. It is a literary technique called allusion, and in the context of a fantasy that explores the notion of reoccuring myth and history it is more than completely acceptable - it is part of what makes WoT potentially more than an interesting sword and sorcery bodice ripper. Jordan shows a nice breadth of education and thought in his use of allusion, and it makes for a richer reading experience. Sadly, Jordan never does live up to the potential here or really of any of his early story elements, nor is he being particularly original even so. The very same allusion, in very much the same usage, and in a work of far more literary merit occurs in Gene Wolfe's 'Book of the New Sun'.

If you wish to tell me that Gene Wolfe's use of allusion without attribution is a cheap ripoff which doesn't add richness, I'll forever distrust your taste in literature. There isn't a finer wordsmith working in the English language today. I'll stack 'Book of the New Sun' or 'Wizard Knight' up against anything by any author.

Jordan isn't up to that standard. But neither is he a poor writer. He is actually a very good writer. He writes powerfully, evocatively, stirringly, passionately, and at times even movingly. He makes good use of language. He has a good ear. He's not even completely lacking in creativity, for all the fact that you can find marks of Tolkien, Herbert, Wolfe, Malory and various other sources all over his works. (If you are going to draw inspiration from something, might as well be the good stuff.) Sadly though, he lacks a good sense of story. He tends to ramble. Far too many pages go by with nothing really advancing the story. He tends to forget plot elements that he's already introduced, and tends to introduce new plot elements to no real purpose. He gets too easily caught up in soap opera melodramatics. But these are principally flaws in the craft of story telling, and not his writing itself.

And you can't really fault his productivity, save to wish he'd got started earlier in life or lived longer. I wish I had half of his ability to bang out pages.

 

[TerraDave]

This also mystifies me. (I guess I'm a mystified fella these days.) I can only remember offhand a couple effects that cause instant death with a failed saving throw: Slay Living (of course) and Wail of the Banshee. I haven't run games at super high level yet, though, so that may be my problem.

So what causes instant death in D&D v.3.5?

Ok, I have one NPC, from an official adventure, sitting right in front of me.

Lets see, in the adventure he's got prepared:

-Slay Living and Destruction: true "save or die"
-Phantasmal Killer: save twice or die
-Harm: essentially save or die
-Disintigrate: just about save or die for many charecters

Of course I don't have to use these spells as a DM. But I would like alternatives. And just on principle, that fact that this guy, since he is a certain level, is suddenly loaded with these things, I don't much like.

 

[TerraDave]

1980 and 1979, respectively.

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/encyclopedia/

So

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

And you can't really fault his productivity, save to wish he'd got started earlier in life or lived longer. I wish I had half of his ability to bang out pages.

Well, if you had a stable of ghost writers, you would have his ability to bang out pages. Do you really think it's possible for these people to turn out thousand-page books annually, like quite a few of these modern writers do? They just write the parts they want to, and let the anonymous drudges fill in the rest of it. So don't feel bad -- it's not some mysterious skill on Jordan's part, just that he has a lot more money than you do, and so can hire people to make him even MORE money.

Back on topic -- it seems excellent that they're reducing save or die situations. Heck, at low levels, every fight is pretty much save or die. You ever see an orc's greataxe crit on a 1st level warrior? Dropped instantly. Basically, it came down to, 'whoever hits first, wins' in a lot of low-level combat. Probably the same at high levels with death effects.

 

[JohnSnow]

The quote comes from Go Rin No Sho, and became a proverb of the samurai. Now, it's certainly fair to suggest that since it became a proverb of sorts, that it's now such a generalized expression that Jordan isn't really stealing it, any more than references to casting the first stone or the mote in another's eye in a book would really be plagiarism per se. But this kind of naked statement minus attribution strikes me much more as ripping off than adding richness.

Emphasis Mine. Reiterating a point doesn't make it true. Please provide chapter and verse so I can verify your claim. I freely admit it's a Japanese proverb - I just question The Book of Five Rings as the source. I've got a copy in front of me, and I couldn't find the quote, but to be fair, my copy's not indexed.

Beyond that, the characters in the novel mention it as a "proverb" in the Borderlands (pretty much Jordan's Japanese analogue culture). It's not like Lan, as a character in a fictional book that has no "Japan," would be able to say "as they say in Japan..." He instead intones it as a common proverb from the WoT-equivalent.

How would you suggest a fictional character in a fictional world properly "attribute" a real-world saying? Beyond making it as obvious as Jordan did, I can't imagine. As far as Jordan himself goes, he readily admitted, in interviews about the novels, that it was a Japanese proverb that he paraphrased. He never claimed credit for inventing it, and readily corrected people who thought he had. That's about as much as he can do.

Well, unless you're saying all real world proverbs are simply off-limits for use in fictional worlds. Or that the author must provide detailed footnotes of their source, like "Footnote: Japanese Proverb."

Still waiting on the actual quote (chapter and verse) from Go Rin No Sho.