D&D 3E/3.5 dragon LAs (split from 3.5 Overhaul Project)
- Thread starter Krishnath
- Start date
Krishnath
First Post
I disagree with an LA of +7, why? you might ask. It's quite simple actually:
SR: +1
Unbalanced Ability Scores: +2
HIGH natural armor compared to other dragons: at least a +2
Breatweapon that deals 8 levels of level drain: +2 at the least.
Size of breathweapon: One additional +1.
Six attacks per round, compared to the fighters 4: +1
Innate Spellcasting as 19th level sorcerer +1 at a minimum.
Shadowblend +1
Keen Senses +1
Blindsense +1
Flight +1
And that's just for starters. The dragons has natural armor equal to it's HD +3 compared to other dragons HD-1 for crying out loud. A great wyrm shadow dragon can alone, slaughter any non-epic great wyrm with little trouble.
SR: +1
Unbalanced Ability Scores: +2
HIGH natural armor compared to other dragons: at least a +2
Breatweapon that deals 8 levels of level drain: +2 at the least.
Size of breathweapon: One additional +1.
Six attacks per round, compared to the fighters 4: +1
Innate Spellcasting as 19th level sorcerer +1 at a minimum.
Shadowblend +1
Keen Senses +1
Blindsense +1
Flight +1
And that's just for starters. The dragons has natural armor equal to it's HD +3 compared to other dragons HD-1 for crying out loud. A great wyrm shadow dragon can alone, slaughter any non-epic great wyrm with little trouble.
Leopold
NKL4LYFE
This monster is from the MoFaerun book right?? I don't own that book to be honest.
SR is high ok that scales with the critter. Unbalanced scores? Prolly high in str ok. High NA fine. BW that does level drain +2 i'll go for that. Size of BW? What is the size?
6 attacks per round? What claw,claw,bite, wingbuffet, tail slap? That's not considered an ECL addition in my book. As that's all natural what the critter was doing. Now if it was getting mulitple claws for each one such as claw: +20/15/10 then i'd agree but that's not one in my book.
Shadowblend,keen senses? When do they kick in?
Flight is universally a 1 in my book.
Remember you are pitting this critter against a Fighter (Dragons use D10 HD or D12 i forget) of the appropriate level a 50+ level fighter is fearsome in his own aspect.
You are saying LA of 14. Can you elaborate on these abilities that i have questions on?
Krishnath
First Post
Keen Senses and Shadowblend kick in when the dragon is a mere wyrmling, not that it matters. As we are discussing the LA of the Great Wyrm, at what age the dragon gained the abilities are insignificant.
The breathweapon for a great wyrm shadow dragon is a 60' cone that drains 8 friggin levels. Half if you make the reflex save (and no Evasion won't help as it is level drain not damage).
The shadow blend gives the dragon full cover whenever it is in less than anything other than full daylight.
And the Keen senses give it low-light vision and darkvision 60'. I usually add Scent too, due to a dragon article by Monte or Sean about dragons mentioning that they forgot to include it in the MM.
Anyways, The dragon can create an area of shadows that is quite large, which enables it to use it's shadow blend anywhere and at any time.
The dragon cast spells as a 17th level sorcerer, which is pretty damned good.
It has 15' reach (20 with it's bite attack).
It can cast Dimension Door twice per day and Shadowwalk once per day as a 17th level caster.
It can use Mirror Image and Nondetection as well three times per day each.
And it has a base save of 21 in all save types.
It's immune to sleep and paralysis, and energy drain.
It's int, wis, and cha is each higher than what any 50th level character could get at 50th level without stat boosting items and wishes.
Heck, if I played a Shadow Dragon I would start using my starting cash to get one of each of the 6 books +5.
It is at least a +14, probably more.
The breathweapon for a great wyrm shadow dragon is a 60' cone that drains 8 friggin levels. Half if you make the reflex save (and no Evasion won't help as it is level drain not damage).
The shadow blend gives the dragon full cover whenever it is in less than anything other than full daylight.
And the Keen senses give it low-light vision and darkvision 60'. I usually add Scent too, due to a dragon article by Monte or Sean about dragons mentioning that they forgot to include it in the MM.
Anyways, The dragon can create an area of shadows that is quite large, which enables it to use it's shadow blend anywhere and at any time.
The dragon cast spells as a 17th level sorcerer, which is pretty damned good.
It has 15' reach (20 with it's bite attack).
It can cast Dimension Door twice per day and Shadowwalk once per day as a 17th level caster.
It can use Mirror Image and Nondetection as well three times per day each.
And it has a base save of 21 in all save types.
It's immune to sleep and paralysis, and energy drain.
It's int, wis, and cha is each higher than what any 50th level character could get at 50th level without stat boosting items and wishes.
Heck, if I played a Shadow Dragon I would start using my starting cash to get one of each of the 6 books +5.
It is at least a +14, probably more.
Leopold
NKL4LYFE
Well the level at which it gets it is very relevant. The problem I had with dragons is that it is too damn complicated to just do a Savage species breakdown for each seperate age category and I just went with the great wyrm and did them compared to another one and leveled it off that way. Hence at what age it gets things matters in comparison if it expands over the course of it's life such as the way some creatures gain greater abilities as they get older and they increase porportionately (sp).
Doing the great wyrms from the MM were easy, this one seems to be a tad trickier.
Keen sense are neglegable as a LA as a 50th level anything will have some sort of ability be it spell or other wise to see in the dark the same way.
Shadowblend is a bugger though but that can easily be counted by a daylight spell or perhaps blind fighting feat. I am not sure of blind fighting it may apply there. Again we have 50 levels of fighter or barbarian to compare it to, they must have something to piss their feats away on
So is this shadow blend ability to create darkness at will? Continous? SU/SA? Dispellable?
He can cast spells as a 17th level sorcerer but he's got how many HD? I am guess upper 30's or higher? If he gets it higher than his HD for spell casting ability I would say a +2 but a +1 can fit for that or it might not even count. We shall see.
Reach of 20' (I go off their longest one) is a +3 at least. +1/5' beyond 5' i go by.
Spell like abilities are trivial as they would be rolled into it's greater spell casting ability. At will spells are the ones that need to be counted. If it gets one of those I tag on a +1.
Starting scores are mickey mouse (i.e. way high and totally unbalanced) so a +2 is good here.
Settle for a +10 perhaps? I need to dredge up my SS or break out some fighter at that high of a level to compare it to?
How many HD does it have?
So far so good
Doing the great wyrms from the MM were easy, this one seems to be a tad trickier.
Keen sense are neglegable as a LA as a 50th level anything will have some sort of ability be it spell or other wise to see in the dark the same way.
Shadowblend is a bugger though but that can easily be counted by a daylight spell or perhaps blind fighting feat. I am not sure of blind fighting it may apply there. Again we have 50 levels of fighter or barbarian to compare it to, they must have something to piss their feats away on
So is this shadow blend ability to create darkness at will? Continous? SU/SA? Dispellable?
He can cast spells as a 17th level sorcerer but he's got how many HD? I am guess upper 30's or higher? If he gets it higher than his HD for spell casting ability I would say a +2 but a +1 can fit for that or it might not even count. We shall see.
Reach of 20' (I go off their longest one) is a +3 at least. +1/5' beyond 5' i go by.
Spell like abilities are trivial as they would be rolled into it's greater spell casting ability. At will spells are the ones that need to be counted. If it gets one of those I tag on a +1.
Starting scores are mickey mouse (i.e. way high and totally unbalanced) so a +2 is good here.
Settle for a +10 perhaps? I need to dredge up my SS or break out some fighter at that high of a level to compare it to?
How many HD does it have?
So far so good
Krishnath
First Post
Shadowblend is a supernatural ability that is an effective Invisibility useable at will in any condition other that daylight.
Which the dragon can get around with it's create shadows ability (which greates a supernatural area of darkness some 200 yards across, thus it cannot be dispelled) that is useable three times per day.
Also, any shadow dragon worth it's salt will take as many spells with the darkness descripitor as possible, to use as a counter for Daylight spells.
And the dragon has 37 HD as a great wyrm.
Regarding the sorcerous spellcasting, the dragon can also cast spells from the cleric list and three domains (chaos, evil, and trickery).
Oh, and I almost forgot, the dragon as all other dragons is immune to sleep and paralysis and has damage reduction.
Which the dragon can get around with it's create shadows ability (which greates a supernatural area of darkness some 200 yards across, thus it cannot be dispelled) that is useable three times per day.
Also, any shadow dragon worth it's salt will take as many spells with the darkness descripitor as possible, to use as a counter for Daylight spells.
And the dragon has 37 HD as a great wyrm.
Regarding the sorcerous spellcasting, the dragon can also cast spells from the cleric list and three domains (chaos, evil, and trickery).
Oh, and I almost forgot, the dragon as all other dragons is immune to sleep and paralysis and has damage reduction.
