Dragon Magazine #294

[JacktheRabbit]

Well I just received my magazine yesterday and I have to say I am rather disapointed. Two areas of it really stink as far as I am concerned.

1. The 3E Gods seem to return to the 1E format. Now they have full stats and abilities and are viable opponents. I much prefereed the 2E format of Gods being all powerful and if you are lucky you can take on a Gods avatar.

2. More info on the Epic Handbook. Now we hear of some skill checks you will be able to make. Wow don't these sound lame:

Swim up a WATERFALL DC 80
Escape artist THROUGH a wall of force DC 120
Climb a perfectly smooth CEILING DC 100

Oh and the feats sound even better:

Vorpal Strike - unarmed strikes that can behead an opponent.

Every time I hear about something from the Epic Level Handbook I get shuddering images of 12 year ols munchkins off to kill Zeus because one of his priests did not kiss their butt at the right moment.

Yep, how truly exciting.

 

[Wolfspider]

Why should what other people do in their own games make any difference to you?

Just don't allow such abilities in your own games and have a happy, worry-free life.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I don't really care what other people run. I do care what WOTC spends tons of effort putting out. Especially when I think the ideas suck so bad that the book is going to bomb.

Why should what other people do in their own games make any difference to you?

Just don't allow such abilities in your own games and have a happy, worry-free life.

 

[Wolfspider]

Well, fair enough. Why do you think these abilities suck?

Why is providing DC numbers for epic tasks bad design? I'm curious to see what the DC for swimming in full armor while fighting sea monsters for days on end is, so I can get a handle on Beowulf's abilities.

And why is it so broken that a monk be able to use a weapon special ability with his unarmed attack? Do you also disallow your fighters to have vorpal swords? If a monk is willing to devote a number of feats to it, I don't see what's wrong with this ability.

Anything else you want to mention from the book?

 

[Richards]

By the way, that should be Dragon #294 , not #284.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I don't really care what other people run. I do care what WOTC spends tons of effort putting out. Especially when I think the ideas suck so bad that the book is going to bomb.

I very much doubt the books will bomb, in any sense. There has been too much interest shown in them already, and plenty of people like the concepts presented. Besides Dragon, Game Trade magazine had a preview of Deities and Demigods, with listings for Hercules and Hermes, which were both intriguing.

If you don't like stats for gods, ignore them. Just rule that they are unassailable in your campaign. I will point out, though, that many of the gods from ancient times had interactions with mortals, and some of them could actually be harmed by mortals - Ares, for example. Still, if you don't like 'em, don't use 'em. It's better to have them than to not have them - plenty of people want them. If WotC had decided to listen to only one group and not have stats for them, they would alienate those who wanted them. This way, those who want them, have them, and those who don't, can, again, ignore them. It's the best way to handle the situation.

Swimming up waterfalls may seem lame, but if I recall correctly, it's very similar to an ability called Salmon Leap (or something like that) from the Celts sourcebook, back in 2e, and was supposedly an ability a Celtic hero (or heroes) had. If you read the Mabinogion, for example, you'll see a bunch of epic heroes with similarly strange abilities, like being able to run across tree-tops. So if it seems lame, remember that plenty of heroes from real world epics have had abilities very much like that.

 

[Harp]

1. The 3E Gods seem to return to the 1E format. Now they have full stats and abilities and are viable opponents. I much prefereed the 2E format of Gods being all powerful and if you are lucky you can take on a Gods avatar.

Yeah, I brought this very concern up in another thread. My issue isn't so much that I don't like the gods having stats, it's that the more mundane aspects of gods (cult details, day-to-day activities of the clergy, various myths) seem to have gotten lost in the push to add gods to the Fight Club.

I've long waited for the Greyhawk gods to get a treatment similar to the one the Forgotten Realms' gods received in the 'Faiths & Avatars' series of books. Has this happened in a previous edition and I just missed it? Regardless, it definitely doesn't seem as if that's what 'Deities & Demigods' is all about, though I fully intend to check it out regardless.

 

[Olive]

Re: Re: Dragon Magazine #294

Yeah, I brought this very concern up in another thread. My issue isn't so much that I don't like the gods having stats, it's that the more mundane aspects of gods (cult details, day-to-day activities of the clergy, various myths) seem to have gotten lost in the push to add gods to the Fight Club.

I've long waited for the Greyhawk gods to get a treatment similar to the one the Forgotten Realms' gods received in the 'Faiths & Avatars' series of books. Has this happened in a previous edition and I just missed it? Regardless, it definitely doesn't seem as if that's what 'Deities & Demigods' is all about, though I fully intend to check it out regardless.

this is exactly what i fear as well...stats are fine, stats at the expense of creating realistic and interesting religions are not...

 

[Wolfspider]

this is exactly what i fear as well...stats are fine, stats at the expense of creating realistic and interesting religions are not...

I got the impression that there WAS information about the religions and such included in the entry.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

I actually had this post ready a number of hours ago, but the boards wouldn't let me post. In the interim Colonel Hardisson (hello mate!) has made many of the same points, somewhat more politely. But as a vehement defender of very high level gaming I simply had to comment...

Well I just received my magazine yesterday and I have to say I am rather disapointed. Two areas of it really stink as far as I am concerned.

Your certainly entitled to your opinion but lets look at things objectively here...

1. The 3E Gods seem to return to the 1E format. Now they have full stats and abilities and are viable opponents. I much prefereed the 2E format of Gods being all powerful and if you are lucky you can take on a Gods avatar.

Amazingly what you fail to comprehend is that the 2nd Ed. option is still perfectly viable.

Now we have either option, something denied us in the close minded 2nd Ed. interpretation (which, as everyone knows was heavily influenced by religious fundamentalist pressure on RPGs at the time!).

2. More info on the Epic Handbook. Now we hear of some skill checks you will be able to make. Wow don't these sound lame:

Swim up a WATERFALL DC 80
Escape artist THROUGH a wall of force DC 120
Climb a perfectly smooth CEILING DC 100

Oh and the feats sound even better:

Vorpal Strike - unarmed strikes that can behead an opponent.

Epic Level Gaming has to at least attempt class balance, if in so doing characters appear superhuman then so what!? Are you familiar with Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (to use an obvious example*) or the multitude of other martial arts/action movies where characters have extraordinary talents. Or indeed many more examples from Mythology of characters with similar amazing capabilities.

*Quoted by the Epic Handbook design team as one of their main influences for elements of the book.

You think now that WotC have drawn upon these ideas that it somehow devalues D&D itself!?

Every time I hear about something from the Epic Level Handbook I get shuddering images of 12 year ols munchkins off to kill Zeus because one of his priests did not kiss their butt at the right moment.

...and if in so doing they have fun, whats your problem!?

Added to which; does this mean its the education of what it means to roleplay at high level rather than such high levels themselves you are attacking!?

I would agree that there is a lack of understanding amidst very high level gaming which should (and hopefully will) be addressed.

But thats no excuse for bigotry from 'supposedly' enlightened and experienced gamers.

Yep, how truly exciting.

Simple. Don't buy the books in question!

Why not channel your time and enthusiasm into positive objectivity rather than concentrating on your negative subjectivity.

I don't really care what other people run.

Seemingly you do care - you just expounded on shuddering when you picture 12 year old 'munchkins' wanting to kill Zeus.

I do care what WOTC spends tons of effort putting out. Especially when I think the ideas suck so bad that the book is going to bomb.

Well fortunately enough you don't run WotC!

I for one, am looking forward to both Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook (and I know I am not the only one, by a long way!).

Don't you think WotC does market research on such products before putting in the effort!?

You also must realise that beyond the Core Rulebooks, pretty much ever product they could conceivably release is going to be for a niche proportion of the market anyway!?

Obviously you can't please all of the people all of the time!

eg. I may not be personally interested in seeing a Dragonlance Campaign Setting book, but I certainly wouldn't criticise WotC (or anyone else) for making one if they thought the interest was sufficient to warrant the effort!

My suggestion for you; is to protest WotCs decision by not buying the books in question.

I am sure you would be better served by telling everyone what you do want to see rather than what you don't! If you generate enough of an interest I am sure someone will take note, whether at WotC or another d20 company.