Dragon Mountain defeated without even entering it!

Reapersaurus:

I assume you're still doing so on here AND on the other RPG site?
(Why do you put so much into having people hear about your party's deeds?)

Yeah, I¡¦m still posting here and there. The reason I enjoy people hearing about my party¡¦s deeds is because I like to get responses, both good and bad. They let me know what I¡¦m doing right and what I¡¦m doing wrong. They also give me ideas for future use in the game. Plus, there¡¦s the ego-stroking involved when people say ¡§that sounds like a fun game.¡¨

Why do you put so much stock in insisting that other peoples¡¦ games aren¡¦t being run correctly? ƒº

it seems awfully heavy-handed of you to come in with the Green Wyrm and say "No More Killing Dragons!" for a DM who professes so much "let the players do as they wish" as you seem to.
Well, I always let the party do what they want to do. They haven¡¦t always succeeded at what they planned, and there are usually consequences to their actions. In this case, the consequences of hunting down dragons was the enmity of a great wyrm. Please don¡¦t confuse my desire to let the players help shape the story with a ¡§give them everything they want when they want it¡¨ style of DMing. I try to have logical repercussions in my game world.

It seems fairly schitzophrenic of the Great Green to feel comfortable giving dictates to the party, but at the other side be in fear of the party, and any possible friends they might have.

Well, her warning to the party took no more than 3 rounds: 1 to drop the corpse, 1 to speak, and one to breathe and fly away. There was very little risk involved in that situation, especially considering that the body was returned in a resurrectable condition. Had it not been, the party would have been more likely to recruit help and go after the dragon. I knew that about my party, and (through divination) so did the dragon.

All the dragons are overconfident, including this Great green after handing the party their heads.

When was she ever over confident? She has always done exactly what he needed to do to achieve his goals. No more, no less. In my mind, she has acted completely within her genius intellect, and demonstrated the qualities I feel a creature would have to have in order to live as long as he has: intellect, patience, and a willingness to not respond to every situation with a ¡§kill the bastards¡¨ mindset.

Then the Great Green gets worried? and kills the sorcerer (why, exactly?) and is not overconfident now. In fact, the Great Green is in FEAR of possible reprisals would come if she killed the party.
This Great Green is the ONLY one that should NOT be afraid of them.

She is not afraid of them (them meaning the party). She is cautious about killing them outright, because generally speaking, people of that level of power have friends and allies who would come looking for them should they disappear. Even if these allies couldn¡¦t harm her, they could still cause her trouble and grief, and interrupt her other plans. This party is not the only thing she has going on right now. So, instead of killing them outright, and then having to wonder if other people (who are complete unknowns to her) might come after her, she prefers to get her goals accomplished other ways. She has, up to this point, been completely succesful in everything she has wanted. The party is no longer hunting dragons. She has been given the Holy Grail of Dragonkind (Dragon Mountain) with no risk to herself. Her hoard has increased considerably through these past events. One of the dragons who was killed (and it was the one who would be most likely to get along with her) will be raised from the dead and reinstated in its lair. Seems to me she¡¦s come out on top without having to resort to annihilating the party.

The dragon I REALLY don't see why would have been overconfident is the last one, their nemesis.

Why shouldn¡¦t he be overconfident (in regards to this particular party)? He lived with them for almost a year, and knows them inside and out. HE has demonstrated his ability to defeat them several times, and has been playing them like fiddles for months. Finally, since his capture at an early age, he has never been defeated by anyone or anything, including his mother, who was an ancient member of his species. Sounds to me like a good basis for confidence. Add to that a need to repress and counter an inferiority complex stemming from his early psychological scars, and you have all the makings of someone who is going to do everything they can to not be seen as weak.

This dragon was just a 9th or 10th level sorcerer or some such?
That doesn't seem like a very effective use of CR, but i really am guessing on that.
It seems if you kept the CR in increasing the dragon's age, it would have made for a more powerful dragon.

The levels of wizard were highly effective in increasing his power. The sheer versatility inherent in the class made him ready for most any situation. The defensive spells afforded him made him a terror in combat. On top of that, the free item creation feats ensured that, while he was in his human disguise, he would be extremely well-equipped. As for increasing his age, the party met him when he was a wyrmling (only 5 years old). Twenty years have passes since then. Where would he have gotten those extra age categories from?

If you really wanted your planning to come into play, and not have months of work blown up, WHY did you have the dragon steal their stuff with ethereal filchers, and then have the paladin TRACK him down?

Another dragon (the sapphire) had used that technique on the party while Arthax (the red) was scrying. He liked the idea and decided to use it himself. He had to be nearby in order to retrieve the items from the party, plus he wanted to be able to watch his handiwork. The paladin didn¡¦t ¡§track him down,¡¨ he followed the filchers and noticed the dragon. The paladin rolled very well on his spot check, and the dragon was not ready to leave yet, as he still hadn¡¦t gotten the Amulet or the dragon bane sword, his two main goals.

As for having months of planning blown up, so what? I enjoyed planning it, the party and I enjoyed ruining that plan, and a good time was had by all. I personally am not so attached to my creations that I would resort to cheating to make sure things to out how I planned. I¡¦m not saying that you are, but tere are DMs out there who do that, and I don¡¦t want to be one of those.

I really enjoyed the description of the devil lawyer.
There¡¦s that ego-stroking I was talking about :)

Everyone else: Don't wory, I'll reply, I'm just a bit pressed for time right now. :) (not that I actually expect anyone to worry...)
 

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Wolfspider: I would react by saying that its an obvious pointer to the DM to not allow what could easily be a misusable and over-powered ability. In fact, I would think that it points to WotC being AGAINST fudging. If they were all for it, it would not be a special circumstance on a single class ability, it would be advised in the DMG.

I agree though, if I were to ever fudge, I would certainly be more subtle about it.
 

Henry:

I can't agree that fudging is necessary to increase suspense, nor that it isn't a form of cheating. Sitting and waiting for the die to stop rolling can be suspenseful. And in-game suspense is best generated outside of combat (where the majority of fudging occurs in my experience).

Whle I agree that it sucks to have an entire party killed right off the bat, I disagree with teh assertion that it won't be fun. It just puts more work on the DM to figure out something to do, such as having the party captured (not via fudging, but by the opposition switching to subdual after a bit). Alternatively, the party can be given a "mystical dream" that would keep the game going somehow.

As for a session being ruined by meta-gaming, I don't have to worry about that with my group. They are all excellent gamers who refuse to resort to meta-gaming. And if they did, I'd stamp it out quick anyway. :)

knowing what I do of Dragon Mountain, the kobolds in Dragon Mountain would have finished off that thing and eaten it for supper a long time ago!!!

Not true. This dragon's strengths were not in combat, sure, but he is practically immune to the poison the kobolds use (by virtue of his high fortitude saves). Also, the kobolds in the mountain (I'm sure you'll agree) would never think of charging into battle with someone who had managed to slay Ifraneya. That means if that wanted to take him out, they'd have to be sneakier than he is. Sure, its possible, but they'd also have to join together, and that's something their cln structure would make difficult if not impossible. Finally, he is much stronger in a diplomacy and intrique situation, due to his skills and magic items he had, which means he easily manipulated the cunning, yet not overly intelligent kobolds.

I certainly hope that when it comes time for them to reckon with your Big Green Terror, that he does not roll over and die with the same rash decisions. I entreat you to play him with all the terror and intelligence that a powerful being of godlike mental attributes can muster.

Of course I will. But I won't hesitate to watch him die if the party manages to kill him, be it through luck, excellent tactics, or both. :)

I do share Wolfspider's distaste of hearing of Great Wyrm Dragons that land next to the PC's in the middle of a field and cast one spell or make one melee attack after another. In those cases, the PC's might as well find a suicide note hung from the dragon's wing.

In the encounter I believe you're referring to, standing in a field and casting spells and attacking is all that the Great Wyrm had to do. Yes, Great Wyrm dragons are highly intelligent and devious. However, that doesn't men they're not allowed to crush opposition beneath their claws when the situation warrants it. Any other response would have been more effort than was necessary at the time.
 

James - thanks for the responses.

I have to say, I'm rather lost by your descriptions of what has happened, though. No big deal, I just don;t think you described it step-by-step for a reason.
My guess is you don't want us pointing out how badly we may think stuff was played out, and that's fair enough...

I really am confused how a paladin got a really good spot roll LOL and then if the paladin attacked this BIG campaign-ending nemesis, why he wasn't instantly pasted.

What CR did you estimate this nemesis to be? (a 10th level wizard, young adult red was it?)
I don;t agree that 10 levels of wizard is a very effective use of levels, IF you guesstimated it at CR 22. :)

Why would the dragon just cast a spell at the paladin? What did it do with its movement once it was spotted? Stand there? Was it in dragon form?

etc.
 

While I think younger dragons are vastly overrated by the 'Dragon Worshippers', I do agree that an extremely old Dragon is a tough and wily opponent, simply because to get old you have to be wily and tough if you're a Dragon.

The only big problem is that in 3E especially, a single opponent versus a party can be at a massive disadvantage, because only a single die roll (or pair of rolls) can bring down the mightiest of opponents.
 

No big deal, I just don;t think you described it step-by-step for a reason.

Yep, the reason is that my post was already massively long, and I've learned that quite a few people ignore threads when their posts turn into 2 page articles. :)

I really am confused how a paladin got a really good spot roll LOL

Well, he rolled a 19, with a spot skill of +10 or so, and eyes of the eagle. I don't see how that's very surprising, but maybe your players don't buy cross-class skills, no matter how useful they are?

What CR did you estimate this nemesis to be? (a 10th level wizard, young adult red was it?)

It was only CR20, since it was a juvenile, not a young adult.

Why would the dragon just cast a spell at the paladin? What did it do with its movement once it was spotted? Stand there? Was it in dragon form?

It would just cast a spell at him because it was pretty certain that the spell would get the paladin on its side. It was in its human form. Had it been in dragon form, hiding would have been much more difficult. It didn't do anything with its movement, because there was no apparent need. The paladin had not shouted a warning, and noone else had spotted him yet.

For a fuller recap of the events:

Round one (the surprise round): The smoke para-elementals appear (having been invisible) next to the party members while they're eating their morning Heroes' Feast. The cleric and the sorceror get their lungs filled with smoke, the paladin makes his save.

2: The sorceror coughs his smoke out and hits the elemental with a sacrifice spell, doing pretty good damage, only to get it put back in on the elemental's turn. The cleric activates his bracers of speed and hits his elemental a couple times, and the paladin hits his also. Ethereal Filchers (two per person) pop in and attempt picking pockets. They fail to grab the amulet, the paladin's sword, and one of the sorceror's metamagic rods, but succeed at the rest, and turn ethereal to leave. The paladin does a lot of damage to the elemental on him, then chases after the filcher carrying his shield of command.

3: The filchers pop back in, then back out, picking pockets or fleeing, depending upon their success the previous round. The sorceror goes to -4 due to smoke claws in his lungs, the paladin killed his elemental, and the cleric almost finishes his elemental off. The cleric casts heal on the sorceror through his holy channel, only to see the smoke keep tearing away at the sorceror's lungs.

4: Filchers still try (and fail) to grab the amulet and dragonbane sword, two filchers die to the paladin who notices the dragon. The sorceror finishes off his elemental and breathes a sigh of relief. The cleric also finishes off his elemental. The dragon casts Suggestion on the paladin "bring me the amulet."

5: More filchers die, as does the paladin's elemental. The dragon casts defensive spells on himself, and the party regroups, finally everyone else notices the dragon.

6: The cleric charges the dragon and casts silence and grapples. The sorceror hits the dragon with a greater dispel (getting a couple spells, but not much of importance) and a sacrifice spell, and the paldin misses. The dragon is hurt, but still not worried, as he's taken less than a third of his hitpoints. He gets out of the grapple, moves out of the silence area, and casts improved invisibility.

7: The dragon casts enervation at the sorceror, doing two negative levels and also giving the cleric two negative levels (through the holy channel). The cleric follows, and casts invisibility purge, then tries to tackle the dragon again, failing this time. The sorceror again hits the dragon with two sacrifice spells, this time doing quite a bit of damage, and letting the dragon know it needs to get the heck out of there. The paladin reiterates that with a critical hit and a regular hit.

8: The cleric fails to grapple again, the paladin gets another hit, and the sorceror hits with another sacrifice spell, droppping the dragon to -2 right before his action (which would have been to teleport away).

Looking back over that, I know that things are in the correct round order, but not necessarily in the right order during the rounds, as I don't remember the exact initaives people had.
 

Alalazar: You're absolutely right, older dragons just get scarier the older they get. IF my party ever decides to face the green again, they'll find that out, as that dragon won't even hang arond to fight. Its smart enough to know that if they're coming after it they must have something to give them confidence. It'll teleport away, then do sniper runs at them with its staff of the magi, summon monster IX-ing twice, then either flying away or teleporting away, or maybe even staying one round to use the staff some more. It will certainly neer get into melee willingly.
 

James McMurray said:
My world. The party was in a metropolis, where I'm sure hundreds of lawyers can be found. The lawyer they hired never had to negotiate, he just read the proposed contracts, and gave a re-write that was more favorable to the party, and wouldn't result in them being a dragon's shower toy.

Dear god, there's an image I didn't need! :p

Re: fudging...

Sometimes it's necessary. For instance, during one session a player found his sword basically useless against the skeletons they were fighting, so he had a brilliant idea: he flipped a table over, bashed the skeleton with it and then dropped the table onto the skeleton as it lay on the floor. At that point, he proceeded to jump up and down on the table until it was smashed! There's no rule for something like that. :D I basically ruled that after one full round of jumping, it was dead... then after the battle, had one of the hands grab his ankle, just for S&G. ;)

Most of the time though, a DM can find a way to prevent things from getting out of hand without resorting to actual fudging. For instance, in the ghouls example someone gave above: if perhaps the ghouls could simply have beat down the character and dragged them off. When their other companions go to investigate, they find the character wrapped up tight in cloth like a cocoon (which allowed them to be stabilized) as a meal for later. Thus, a rescue could be enacted. It's a small stretch, but it adds a bit to the roleplay potential of the situation.

Of course, it is hard to decide something like that in the heat of the moment. I'll be the first to admit that DMing is a tough job, as I found running just a few sessions. I hope to continue at some point though, and will try to keep the dice fudging to a minimum, since you can accomplish it through RP instead, usually.
 

What you described, Kesh, is not really fudging. It's coming up with a spur-of-the-moment ruling about something not actually covered in the rules--something I have to do frequently.

Imagine that the player had come up with this brilliant way of beating the skeleton--but then he had rolled a 2 to hit. :( Disappointing, eh? After all that creative effort, he falls right on his butt and would have been better off just hacking away ineffectually with the sword instead of trying something new. In this case, I would gleefully fudge and say that because the table is larger than normal it gives you a +5 blah blah bonus to hit, combined with the yada yada penalty that the skeleton suffers--and you hit! ;)

The character gets to jump up and down on the skeleton and feel a sense of accomplishment, the rest of the party can laugh at his antics, and the DM can sit back and know that he's done a good job entertaining his players. :cool:

Even if it did involve (gasp! horrors! :eek: ) fudging a bit for dramatic effect. :D
 
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I'm not sure that in replacing the original dragon with one that had more ties to the campaign you didn't make it easier on them. If I remember correctly the original dragon was the "son" of tiamat and a complete badass great wyrm red dragon. I'm not sure how that stacks up against a much younger dragon even with the evoker lvls. but don't think i'm bagging you decision i completely understand the reasoning. But at the same time a reduced (it seems to me) challange would result in reduced treasure.
Dragon Mnt. had several problems on it's own one of which being it asked you to ignore the rules for the sake of coolness. Something i don't think is right, or necessary.
Believe me i understand the best laid plans being ruined by some good roles;)

Paragon
 

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