Dragon Mountain defeated without even entering it!

[reapersaurus]

Let me preface these questions with this:
I don't know all of those spells and items you're mentioning, since I don't think they are all in the core books. So I may be missing some facts, but. here's my impressions...

It didn't do anything with its movement, because there was no apparent need. The paladin had not shouted a warning, and noone else had spotted him yet.

If you are spotted by an overwhelming force, there is INSTANTLY an apparent need to move. And just because the paladin hadn't cried out YET to his comapnions apparently one move away, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have considered getting some distance from melee types.

2: The cleric activates his bracers of speed and hits his elemental a couple times, and the paladin hits his also. Ethereal Filchers (two per person) pop in and attempt picking pockets. They fail to grab the amulet, the paladin's sword, and one of the sorceror's metamagic rods, but succeed at the rest, and turn ethereal to leave. The paladin does a lot of damage to the elemental on him, then chases after the filcher carrying his shield of command.

OK.
The cleric uses a non-core item (Bracers of Speed) and apparently gets haste. HOW could he activate the item AND get 2 attacks that round?
Other than creatures that specialize in stealing stuff continually missing, HOW did the paladin chase after the ones that had turned ethereal?
Ethereal means invisible, according to the Ethereal Jaunt spell which the filcher's power emulates.
And how did the paladin have his shield with him if they were eating when attacked?
Side note: did ANY of the party's melee attacks miss, other than round 6 paladin's?

4: Filchers still try (and fail) to grab the amulet and dragonbane sword, two filchers die to the paladin who notices the dragon. The sorceror finishes off his elemental and breathes a sigh of relief. The cleric also finishes off his elemental. The dragon casts Suggestion on the paladin "bring me the amulet."

God forbid he did anything more than a 3rd level spell that would most likely NEVER work against a paladin anyway...
The REAL questionable thing here is WHY the heck the dragon was standing so close to the party. Basically, we have an encounter that's designed to steal the party's stuff. Then, the master is just sitting right off stage waiting for the party to llok behind the curtain. Terrible.

5: More filchers die, as does the paladin's elemental. The dragon casts defensive spells on himself, and the party regroups, finally everyone else notices the dragon.

God forbid the dragon did anything effective this round, while he had the paladin mano-y-mano. Defensive spells. Good idea. Funny how the spells don't seem to include haste, or even Improved Invisibility THIS turn.
Oh - WHY didn't the dragon cast the defensive spells the FIRST 3 rounds?

6: The cleric charges the dragon and casts silence and grapples. The sorceror hits the dragon with a greater dispel (getting a couple spells, but not much of importance) and a sacrifice spell, and the paldin misses. The dragon is hurt, but still not worried, as he's taken less than a third of his hitpoints. He gets out of the grapple, moves out of the silence area, and casts improved invisibility.

Now THIS is ridiculous.
The dragon is in human form, has a cleric grappling him in Silence, has some stuff get dispelled AND gets Sacrifice'd (what's the Sacrifice spell?)
Nobody thinks like that, BTW: "I've only lost a 3rd of my HP's."
Real creatures say "Hey. My ambush didn't work and all my minions are dead, and I'm in a weak form and I'm against a party that has 5 more attacks than I do every 6 seconds and have a combined more health than I do."
This round is where you REALLY made it clear that you wanted your party to win.

7: The dragon casts enervation at the sorceror, doing two negative levels and also giving the cleric two negative levels (through the holy channel). The cleric follows, and casts invisibility purge, then tries to tackle the dragon again, failing this time. The sorceror again hits the dragon with two sacrifice spells, this time doing quite a bit of damage, and letting the dragon know it needs to get the heck out of there. The paladin reiterates that with a critical hit and a regular hit.

What juvenile dragon would stand toe-to-toe with monster PC's like your party has that have TONS of magic and are prepped???!
BTW: What is a cleric doing grappling a dragon?
In what possible combat scenario would the dragon see that as "A Good Sign?"

8: The cleric fails to grapple again, the paladin gets another hit, and the sorceror hits with another sacrifice spell, dropping the dragon to -2 right before his action (which would have been to teleport away).

So the dragon somehow gets one spell against the sorcerer (enervation) then takes 9 attacks before he gets to go again??
How are you doing initiative? Seriously.

To sum up this ridiculously badly-played dragon-battle:
Your CR20 ultimate nemesis did NOTHING while the party didn't know he was there, and while they were busy fighting the minions that a CR20 monster SHOULD have a hell of a lot more of.

Then, once the party sees him lurking just off-stage, one movement away, he casts a 3rd level Will save spell against a Paladin, casts defensive stuff on himself, casts an enervation, and then dies.

Pathetic.

The more I hear of the way you play dragons, the more I wonder what you're thinking.
You seem a very rules-knowledgable person, and fairly reasonable.

WHY do you play dragons so weakly?

Wolfspider: Sign me up in your club - I'm changing my sig to indicate membership right away.

 

[James McMurray]

Wolfspider: I don't think it would be disappointing at all. I think it would be fairly decent, considering ho hard it must be to upend table and toss it on someone. I bet he'd hit with his second swing, unless he was just on a bad rolling streak.

 

[James McMurray]

I don't know all of those spells and items you're mentioning, since I don't think they are all in the core books.

I'll explain them as I go then.

If you are spotted by an overwhelming force, there is INSTANTLY an apparent need to move. And just because the paladin hadn't cried out YET to his comapnions apparently one move away, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have considered getting some distance from melee types.

He was not spotted by an overwhelming force, he was spotted by someone who he felt was about to become his bitch.

The cleric uses a non-core item (Bracers of Speed) and apparently gets haste.

Heard of Boots of Speed? They're the exact same thing, only in a different slot.

HOW could he activate the item AND get 2 attacks that round?

Ummm, because I mis-typed and meant to say the paladin hits his elemental a couple times and the clerics hits his also?

Other than creatures that specialize in stealing stuff continually missing, HOW did the paladin chase after the ones that had turned ethereal? Ethereal means invisible, according to the Ethereal Jaunt spell which the filcher's power emulates.

Well, they still only have a +12 Pick Pockets, which means for small items, they need a 20. When trying to pull swords out of sheathes that have been targeted with Seal of Hedrada, they failed because it can't be done. The Seal is a Relics and Rituals spell that basically makes it so noone but Lawful Good people can draw that weapon, although its far from the spell's only use.

The paladin did not chase etheral creatures. If you read the filcher's description, they can only stay ethereal for one round at a time. That means you can chase them if you go when they reappear.

And how did the paladin have his shield with him if they were eating when attacked?

Becuase they're eating a hero's feast at a table and it was sitting beside him on the bench?

Side note: did ANY of the party's melee attacks miss, other than round 6 paladin's?

Yes, people's third attacks often missed. But then again, filchers and para-elementals don't have very good ACs.

God forbid he did anything more than a 3rd level spell that would most likely NEVER work against a paladin anyway...
The REAL questionable thing here is WHY the heck the dragon was standing so close to the party.

Suggestion is a highly effective spell, even if it is only level 3. Had it worked, it would have both removed the enemy from the combat, and gained an ally in the theft attempt. As for why he was standing so close, maybe its because he needed to be near to get the items that his summoned monsters grabbed for him?

God forbid the dragon did anything effective this round, while he had the paladin mano-y-mano. Defensive spells. Good idea. Funny how the spells don't seem to include haste, or even Improved Invisibility THIS turn. Oh - WHY didn't the dragon cast the defensive spells the FIRST 3 rounds?

Um, god forbid you actually get down off your high horse and try to pay attention to what people are saying. How the heck did he "cast defensive spells" if he one of them wasn't haste? Also, he did cast defensive spells the first three rounds, I didn't feel the need to mention though, as I didn't realize that you were completely unable to extrapolate from the fact that the sorceror managed to dispel some things, that apparently "some things" must have been cast earlier.

The dragon is in human form, has a cleric grappling him in Silence, has some stuff get dispelled AND gets Sacrifice'd (what's the Sacrifice spell?)

Actually, the correct phrasology would be "pathetically attempting and failing to grapple him". Sacrifice Spell is another spell from Relics and Rituals, it lets you give up other spell slots for bolts that do a d8 per spell level given up (up to your level in dice, reflex save for half).

Nobody thinks like that, BTW: "I've only lost a 3rd of my HP's."
Real creatures say "Hey. My ambush didn't work and all my minions are dead, and I'm in a weak form and I'm against a party that has 5 more attacks than I do every 6 seconds and have a combined more health than I do."

No, but some people think like this: "I'm not hurt very badly, I've got an ace up my sleeve in Improved Invisibility, and I REALLY want that Artifact Amulet. I could stay around for another second or two at least. After all, escape by teleport is only an instant away."

This round is where you REALLY made it clear that you wanted your party to win.

I prefer to think of it as yet another example of enemies acting in character.

What juvenile dragon would stand toe-to-toe with monster PC's like your party has that have TONS of magic and are prepped???!
BTW: What is a cleric doing grappling a dragon?
In what possible combat scenario would the dragon see that as "A Good Sign?"

It wasn't seen as a good sign, it was seen as a chance to get "that damned amulet," as the dragon called it.

So the dragon somehow gets one spell against the sorcerer (enervation) then takes 9 attacks before he gets to go again??
How are you doing initiative? Seriously.

Well, if you would have read what I wrote with an eye towards content rather than trying to dreg up things to nitpick over, you would have seen the following: [/QUOTE]Looking back over that, I know that things are in the correct round order, but not necessarily in the right order during the rounds, as I don't remember the exact initaives people had.[/QUOTE]
Is it just me, or did I say right off that things weren't in the correct order on those rounds? Why yes, yes I did.

Your CR20 ultimate nemesis did NOTHING while the party didn't know he was there,

Wrong, as stated above.

and while they were busy fighting the minions that a CR20 monster SHOULD have a hell of a lot more of.

HE did have a hell of a lot more minions, but its kind of hard to teleport across country with thousands of kobolds. Not to mention the fact that not every CR20 monster is going to have minions. Have you ever heard of loners? I'd be willing to bet that Smaug (one of the original dragons of Fantasy) was well over CR20, and he lived all by himself. Just because you happen to think something, doesn't necessarily make it true.

Then, once the party sees him lurking just off-stage, one movement away, he casts a 3rd level Will save spell against a Paladin, casts defensive stuff on himself, casts an enervation, and then dies.

That about sums it up. And here I thought you were confused about the events as they occurred

Pathetic.

I disagree, but even the Taliban is entitled to their opinion.

The more I hear of the way you play dragons, the more I wonder what you're thinking.

I'm thinking that creatures should be played to their intelligence scores, their wisdom scores, and their personalities. I belive I've said that quite a few times. If you still can't see that, I'm sorry but I don't know how many times more I can say it, nor how I can be clearer.

You seem a very rules-knowledgable person, and fairly reasonable. [/QUOTE
Thanks, I certainly am not perfect as far as the rules go, but I know them better than my players, and if I don't know something, I usually at least will know where to look. As for the reasonable part, I think I'll also add on patient, as its very difficult not to respond with flames when being flamed myself.

WHY do you play dragons so weakly?

I only play them to their personalities, as defined by their pasts and by me, the DM. Two of the dragons the party has faced (the green and the sapphire) have been far from "weak." One did precisely what it needed to ensure a good outcome for itself (the green) and the other fought tooth and nail, and managed to give a party of slightly less average level than its EL (but better equipped) a very good fight before it went down.

I just happpen to think that dragons are not all all-knowing, all-powerful, all-ass-kicking, all-the-time beasts. If they were, they wouldn't be so low in CR when they're younger, they'd start out at CR20 and go up from there.

Edit-> peaking of Smaug, what was it that killed him? Oh yeah, I almost forgot, he got a bit too cocky and thought he could take on an entire city. Seems to me that if a dragon like Smaug could get over-confident, perhaps it isn't a stretch to say that other dragons could as well?

 

[Holy Bovine]

Breanor did your DM actually tell you that the Stone Golem regenerated 50hp? I would think that was pretty wierd and wouldn'y have really liked that (of course I would have been none the wiser if it had simply taken another 2 rds to finish the fight, so I guess it's not really and issue)

I do fudge dice rolls occasionally - but never to save a 'pet' creature.

I'm the DM.

I have infinite creatures.

Killing one gives me the opportunity ot create an even more nasty creature.

I fudge (on the rare occsions I have - maybe 3 times in the last 18 months of campaigning) in favour of the players only.

And then it is really only if they didn't do anything wrong and it was some freakish bit of luck that I roll a double critical with 2 battleaxes on a single PC in 1 round and wipe him out. I'll let on crit go by and a normal hit instead (for example).

Anyway, it really all comes down to whether the players are comfortable with your DMing style - fudging or not fudging included. If your players are happy, and you're happy then there is no p[roblem as far as see it.

 

[James McMurray]

Follow-up to my round-by-round post:

Looking back over it, I realize that I'm missing something in there maybe even a whole round. I know the cleric also used a round to attempt to Dimensional Anchor the dragon, and rolled a 1 on his attack.

 

[James McMurray]

If your players are happy, and you're happy then there is no p[roblem as far as see it.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Pielorinho]

Very interesting to read, and maybe one day Reaper will learn manners.

Nah -- I'm not THAT far into my fantasy world.

James, I think this dragon behaved plausibly, from all that you've described. My only question is not to you, but to WOTC:

even though they have the same CR, does anyone really think that a young adult green w/ 10 wizard levels (CR20) is equivalent to a very old red dragon (CR20)?

The YA green gets:
243 HP (on average)
a breath weapon that does 10d6 damage, DC 22 -- average damage on a failed save=35 HP
DR 5/+1
5th level spells as a wizard
3rd level spells as a sorcerer

The very old red dragon gets
449 HP (on average)
a breath weapon that does 18d10 HP, DC 33-- average damage on a failed save = 99 HP
DR 15/+2
suggestion 3x/day (DC 19)
6th level spells as a sorcerer

This leaves out the melee attacks of the two critters.

Other than the first dragon's extra two metamagic feats, and a bit more versatility spellwise, does it have any advantages to make up for the one-less level of spells, and the 206 fewer HP, and the breath weapon that does 1/3 as much damage even on the relatively fewer times that it hits, and the worse damage reduction, and the fewer special abilities?

I'm thinking that the treasure that a CR20 red dragon has is not appropriate for a CR20 green dragon/evoker.

Still, it does sound like a fun encounter, and if the players got a little too much loot, there are ways to get rid of it! Rust monsters polymorphed into seagulls, I hear, can be diverting.

Daniel

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Pielorinho, good point. I think that dragon's CR should have been about 14-15.

Btw, nice adventure. It's been fun to read about too.


I don't know what this dragon-roleplay-complaint is all about.

This is not "My 20th level wizard killed four gold wyrms in one round all by himself"-thread.
Well, those are mostly encountered at WotC-site and usually involve time-stop.

I get a feeling 'somebody' here thinks, any dragon is badly played if it didn't manage to kill/destroy/scare off pc:s.

I suggest those people here grab some game, where dragons are actually quite unbeatable by rules, and stay away from D&D. I mean something like 'Dragonquest', where even if you somehow (hardly happens) manage to kill one, you get 'Death Cursed'.

In D&D base juventile green dragon is CR 7. That CR includes creatures like 'dire bear', 'spectre' or 'hill giant'. Do you play these creatures unbeatable too, reaper?

Juventile red dragon has CR of 9, same CR includes creatures like frost giant, greater air elemental or succubus. Think very hard should these creatures be unbeatable too.

Old dragons and up are different story entirely.

Happy gaming everybody, no matter what you opinions about fun are.

 

[Berandor]

Breanor did your DM actually tell you that the Stone Golem regenerated 50hp? I would think that was pretty wierd and wouldn'y have really liked that (of course I would have been none the wiser if it had simply taken another 2 rds to finish the fight, so I guess it's not really and issue)

Well, let me delve into it further.
You must know that I was a paladin in the group, and the group leader, with a Strength of 14, and my "squire" was a fighter of the same level with a Strength of 18/00.
In every encounter, when we were fighting he was dropping creatures by the dozen, while I was lucky to kill one, or two.

Not that it's important, but heck - I was the group leader!
Now, in the fight with the golem, I said that finally, I would get the killing blow. I even sent the squire away into safety - and promptly fumbled, so the fighter stayed, of course, and would have killed the Golem.

The DM then said that normally, the Golem would have regenerated some points each round, and he would give him this amount now - like 15 rounds of regenerating 3 hit points or somesuch.
That's how the Golem got its points back.
We didn't question it, as it was clear that even with 50hp back, we were stronger - the shield block was very effective
And I got to do the final strike, for once, with my dragon shield (critical!).

Berandor

 

[Kesh]

What you described, Kesh, is not really fudging. It's coming up with a spur-of-the-moment ruling about something not actually covered in the rules--something I have to do frequently.

Imagine that the player had come up with this brilliant way of beating the skeleton--but then he had rolled a 2 to hit. Disappointing, eh? After all that creative effort, he falls right on his butt and would have been better off just hacking away ineffectually with the sword instead of trying something new. In this case, I would gleefully fudge and say that because the table is larger than normal it gives you a +5 blah blah bonus to hit, combined with the yada yada penalty that the skeleton suffers--and you hit!

Oh yea, that's something I have no problem with. However, IIRC, he managed to pin it against the wall. But, there was the need to get the skeleton on the floor and then drop the table on it. I don't remember what the roll TN was, but I think he missed it the first time. I ruled that the skeleton slipped free onto the ground, and the next round, let him try to drop the table on it, which did hit. Then he got to jump on it. Point being, he still had a chance of failure.

Characters should have a chance to do something unusual and dramatic, but I feel they should still have a chance of failure. I might fudge the target number a little, but the dice fall where they lay.

The character gets to jump up and down on the skeleton and feel a sense of accomplishment, the rest of the party can laugh at his antics, and the DM can sit back and know that he's done a good job entertaining his players.

Even if it did involve (gasp! horrors! ) fudging a bit for dramatic effect.

Yup. Like I said though, it almost didn't work... which made it even better for them. Knowing that he almost let it get away made it even better when he finally did crush the un-life out of it.