Dragon PCs - weak, weak, weak

[pawsplay]

How could a dragon possibly wear a cloak?

Around its neck, like anyone else? It could flutter dramatically between its wings.

 

[smetzger]

I realize it's magic we're talking about here, but I think you have to apply at least a little common sense. How could a dragon possibly wear a cloak? Put its wings through the arm holes?

Magic items size to fit the wearer; they don't shape to fit the wearer.

Well if WOTC can put a Tree Ent in the fight club with a cloak I think it would be safe to give a medium or smaller dragon a cloak.

 

[Scion]

Their LA's are way to high, but then it seems like most are. Most wotc and others have the same problem, they make you pay twice for your abilities. With PC classes you gain hd +abilities at each level. For some reason most creatures you pay for the hd with levels, and then they go back and say, 'how many levels are these abilities worth, lets add that number to the top'. A few simple acid tests show that most of what they have are way too high, even in the most advantageous conditions.

In any event, I'd say for your campaign just go through and do your own acid tests, see where it balances out for you all.

Then came the issue of equipping our dragons. If we go by PC gear value, we end up with dragons with FAR more horde value than a dragon of 5 age categories above us. In a world of mostly dragons, this would be a problem.

As for this problem, grab the book of exalted deeds, have all of your dragons be good and paragons of Good..lol.. grab the exalted feats and vow of poverty. you will have zero cash on you, gain some followers through various leadership feats, have your followers build their own little town, donate all of your gold to that. You can be your own living incarnation of hope and good for your people of lizardfolk or whatever! I think it'd be great Best of all you wont be having to defend yourself from higher up dragons, just your people.

 

[AuraSeer]

A horse can wear rings? How could they possibly put them on?

Bracers I could see, but not rings.

A horse can wear one ring on each front leg, just above the hoof. Since the ring resizes, there's no problem making it fit.

 

[Leopold]

Their LA's are way to high, but then it seems like most are. Most wotc and others have the same problem, they make you pay twice for your abilities. With PC classes you gain hd +abilities at each level. For some reason most creatures you pay for the hd with levels, and then they go back and say, 'how many levels are these abilities worth, lets add that number to the top'. A few simple acid tests show that most of what they have are way too high, even in the most advantageous conditions.

LA too high? They are about a +5 or round about those parts. How is that too high??? A vampire is a +8!!! +5 is avg.

 

[Grog]

How could a dragon possibly wear a cloak?

Around its neck, like anyone else? It could flutter dramatically between its wings.

Don't mind me; I obviously said "cloak" when I meant "robe". Still, though, it might cause problems with flying.

 

[Grog]

A horse can wear one ring on each front leg, just above the hoof. Since the ring resizes, there's no problem making it fit.

Is there something specific in the rules that allows this? If not, there's no way I'd let a horse wear a ring - it's a ring, not an anklet. Pretty basic rule - if you want to wear a ring, you gotta have fingers. Or at least digits of some sort.

 

[Scion]

LA too high? They are about a +5 or round about those parts. How is that too high??? A vampire is a +8!!! +5 is avg.

a vampire? who cares about them? they are nearly impossible to balance as pcs seeing as how they can have an unbounded number of servants that can all be very very strong.

Now, as for other LA's I'm not sure how you can get +5 is average. Do you mean for the dragons? Doesnt even matter in any way, shape, or form what this hypothetical 'average' is as it has no bearing on what I said.

Creatures have base HD and then a LA. PCs have have base HD only. Why dont pc classes have a LA? Most creatures are required to pay for their abilities twice, once with hd and once again with LA. This is the main falacy and problem inherant to the system.

If you are trying to be a dragon with a base 5hd compare them with a 5th level of every other class. See who is better at what and when and in which way. See if you believe it needs an additional +x level adjustment. In most cases a +1 is excessive, let alone a +5!

 

[Epametheus]

The easiest way to solve this problem for dragon characters is to just toss away the LA. The dragon's "level" is its starting hit dice. Everything else it can do as a dragon (and the benefits of having the superior dragon hit dice) can be counted as its class abilities. The level adjustment works better for balancing races with great abilities but less hit dice (like, say, mind flayers).

I'd be inclined to have the dragon sometimes get a bonus HD over time but generally level up in a pc class. This helps balance the dragons against each other -- the less beefy draconic races are balanced against their peers by an early start into classes. The young gold might be a heckualot more dragon than the young bronze, but the young bronze might already have fighter or monk levels, for example.

I'd make an exception to this for white dragons. White dragons should just be hopeless

Mmmm... Kung fu dragons...

 

[Jeremy]

Another problem with the all dragon game is that there is little or no difference between the dragons.

Velenne's dragon utilizes the very nice rapid strike feats and is a very impressive grappler.

My dragon can't be a caster because he's got all those dragon hd and level adjustment in the way. His natural casting ability is nil. So all he can be is another flury of teeth and claws. You'd think there'd be some way a noble creature like a dragon could be some what different than every other of his kind.

Humans can be or do just about anything in entirely different manners. Dragons are kinda limited to just melee critters.

(And yes, my breath weapon and spell casting ability are also non-important against creatures of appropriate CR except in an auxillary capacity supporting melee that I had wanted my dragon to disdain.)

Then there's the fun of cohorts. In different ways, both of our particular dragons in this all dragon group are leaders. With dragonkin, kith, kobolds, and various other reptilian servitors. My dragon secured planar travel to recruit a servitor of his caliber that studied in a similar field. Unfortunately, gear or no gear, the cohort with his straight spell casting is more useful than the PC!

And the PC's a dragon!

I agree, Dragon PC's have severe problems.