Dragon PCs - weak, weak, weak

[James McMurray]

I compared it to the race that seemed most closely related to the gnoll. And just because you happen to dislike the half-orc and fighter doesn't mean its a poor basis for comparison. I have a plaer in my group who plays fighters almost exclusively due to the vesatility those bonus feats grant you.

But lets try this again, with human as the race, and barbarian as the class.

Human Barbarian 4
4d12 hit dice (37 average hp with con 14 base)
BAB: +4
3 feats
base saves:
fort: +4
ref: +1
will: +1
Skill points: 7 x (5 + Int mod)

Gnoll Fighter 1
+4 strength
+2 con
2d8 + 1d12 hit dice (28 average hit points with con 14 base)
BAB +2
2 feats
base saves:
fort: +5
ref: +0
will: +0
Natural Armor +1
Skill points: 5 x (2 + Int mod) + (4 + Int Mod)

Overall the two characters seem pretty even. The human has a few more hit points, but over time the Gnoll's increased con stat will even that out. At ECL 20 the gnoll will have about 180 hit point (assuming base con of 14 + 2 for race) while the human would only have 173.

The human would have one more iterative attack, but the gnoll's increased strength is going to make him hit more often for more damage.

The human has a lot more skill points, but the gnoll had listen and spot as class skills for a while. Those are some pretty useful skills, so I figure this about evens out. Saves are about equal. The gnoll is weaker in his weak areas, but stronger in his strong areas.

The gnoll loses access to Trap Sense +6 (oh darn), Damage Reduction 5/- (nice, but his higher hit points and longer rages will partially make up for this), and mighty rage. His higher base strength makes up for that, and then some. It just means that the human is finally caught up to him o con (but only while raging) and is only one point behind in strength mod instead of 2. The gnoll also loses one use of rage per day, but how many 20th level characters actually use 6 rages in a day?

 

[Epametheus]

Ones that kill lots of people?

Aren't Spot and Listen barbarian class skills? I know one of them is, anyways.

The gnolls seems to be winning there, but the barbarian class is just about the only area where a half-orc might beat a human, too. If it's about equal with a human in what just might be its ideal class, I guess it's balanced. Considering that a gnoll is almost certainly inferior to a human as a spellcaster, being better than a human at something is forgivable.

 

[Scion]

Sorry, didnt mean to sound so harsh with the last message. If you like I can find the threads that were talking about how fighters need a boost. While it is true that some dont agree my mind is more than made up on the issue. They just dont gain enough. In campaigns I have run I have given them a bonus feat at every level instead of every even and all that did was make them on par with other classes.

Human Barbarian 4
4d12 hit dice (37 average hp with con 14 base)
BAB: +4
3 feats
base saves:
fort: +4
ref: +1
will: +1
Skill points: 7 x (5 + Int mod)

Gnoll Fighter 1
+4 strength
+2 con
2d8 + 1d12 hit dice (28 average hit points with con 14 base)
BAB +2
2 feats
base saves:
fort: +5
ref: +0
will: +0
Natural Armor +1
Skill points: 5 x (2 + Int mod) + (4 + Int Mod)

I like your comparison here but I still get a different answer from it when I look at it. The human is always 3 levels of benefits ahead which is an incredible gap.

In your comparison here the human has 35 + 7*intbonus in skill points vs the gnolls 14 + 6*int bonus. Even assuming a 10 int this is an incredible difference. The gnoll may have a few more ranks in spot but that is far from gauranteed. Having nearly 3x the amount of skill points has to count for something! Plus the humans feat could be +2spot/+2 listen which pretty much negates that. Or it could make spot a class skill and give it a +2.

That iterative attack that the human is ahead by for about half the time is just icing on the cake for the human. If the human has two attacks vs the gnolls one I know who my money will be on even with the gnolls higher str score.

at fourth the humans avg hp are 31.5 +4xconbonus vs the gnolls 19 (assuming the gnolls first hd is maxed, it may be that all of his hd are rolled) I'm not sure how you got your numbers above.. human 12 + 6.5*3 = 31.5 +8from con is 39.5, for the gnoll 8 + 4.5 + 6.5 = 19+6from con = 25. so your human is missing 2.5 hp and the gnoll has 3 too many. (I just noticed, you said base, so the gnolls hp are right)

at 20th level the human avg hp is 135.5 +20xconmod vs gnolls 123 + 19xcon mod. So assuming a 10 con for the human and 12 for the gnoll the gnoll wins out on hp 135.5 vs. 142, with 12 vs 14 it becomes 155.5 vs 161, with 14 vs 16 it becomes 175.5 vs 180. And the gap keeps closing with each bonus. Most barbs I've seen have at least an 18 in con for whatever reason by this time. So 18 vs 20 is 215.5 vs 218. Which is definately not a real advantage. Having that extra point of damage reduction will matter more than the extra 2.5 hp on average.

I just feel that the gnoll doesnt need that +1 LA. He is already behind in all sorts of ways, no need to further punish what might be an interesting character.

 

[Altalazar]

There are a few interwoven problems here, and each should be resolved separately.

NUMBER 1: Savage Species' ECL/LA system sucks.
This one's been argued to death, but for those of you new to the debate, the problem is simple: 1 HD should not equal 1 ECL. One level of a PC class is one ECL; 1 HD of any type is inferior to a class level. So, you get a ridiculous situation: if two different races both have the same special abilities and the same LA, the one with more HD will be weaker than the one with less. Ergo, LA is only useful when considered in conjunction with the HD, not as an independent variable; a high-HD creature should have a low (or even negative) LA to compensate for its inferior HD.
Solution: Just use one ECL number that accounts both for the HD and the special abilities in a fair way. For this, I'd suggest Soldarin's ECL system, although there have been a few other good ones. Whatever system you use, just make sure that it's balanced well.

Anyway, I think that covers the basics.

Yes, I agree, a hit die in no way is equivalent to a level. I think it is about equivalent to a feat, in terms of balance. But there is a simple way to deal with it - just don't grant any ADDITIONAL HD for level until the character level exceeds the hit dice. So if you start with 2 HD as a gnoll, for instance, make that ZERO level equivalents extra - but then you don't get to roll a new hit die until reaching third level. That gives an advantage early that eventually evaporates. Perhaps if the class hit die is higher, you could "reroll" it for each level you get before then to not penalize you.

Because near as I can see, almost all of the level adjustment is based on hit dice, and that makes zero sense.