D&D 5E Dragon Player Characters


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Negflar2099

Explorer
I really liked this a lot. I loved the Council of Wyrrms box set. This could be the basis of a great conversion to 5e. I also liked what you did with the subclasses. I don't know if I could mix a dragon into a non-dragon group but as a way to do an all dragon group this would be awesome.
 


Negflar2099

Explorer
You know, AverageCitizen, that's an interesting question. It's one of those things where the supposed drawbacks that would result from someone playing a dragon in a mixed campaign wouldn't really end up being drawbacks. The big one is that dragons are so large that they can't enter most dungeons. But, look at the reality of it. Will the player playing a dragon just have to sit out the adventure because the PCs went inside a cave? Probably not. Instead what will happen is the DM will just need to change the nature of the adventures she runs, either adding an opportunity for the dragon PC to fly above the cave and scope out danger while the others are inside, or forgoing caves entirely.

There could still be moments where the DM could hammer home the negative effects of being a dragon without causing disruption to the game. For instance the dragon PC would have to wait outside (far outside) any towns while the others are able to go in. Also the dragon PC can't use any magical items. Although the Great Serpent subclass with its shapeshifting abilities could solve a lot of these problems. If I did allow a player to play a dragon when no one else is I would encourage them to take that class.

All that said I don't see these rules being used in so called mixed groups very often. Instead I think they're best used as a basis for an all dragon campaign. Then balance between dragons and non-dragons doesn't matter. The only question is having to adapt adventures and battles for a group of dragons, but the idea is so cool it's probably worth all the work.
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
I've noticed a trend towards 10-foot squares in 5e so most dragons should fit in the dungeon just fine. Even with 5-foot squares a dragon can squeeze, and it sucks for them to fight in those conditions, but most dragons would just be like, "eh, I'm a damn dragon, I can take it." The only problem would be 2.5-foot wide passages meant for humanoids to squeeze through, but I see those very rarely in actual adventures. And the Apex Predator who turns Huge and becomes 15x15 might have to squeeze a lot more and would not be able to go down 5-foot passages, but by 17th level there should be ways to work around that, like a friend with teleportation spells, or shrinking spells, or taking the Change Shape feat.

Here are my thoughts on game balance:
  • At low levels, they are clearly overpowered. The racial traits alone are disgustingly good. I just couldn't figure out how to balance flight and non-humanoid type without making dragons seem artificially gimped.
  • By upper levels, I think it evens out. When everybody in the party is attacking 4 times per round, flying, slinging meteor swarm, doing 180 points of damage with Assassinate, etc., then having claws and breath weapons and 26 Strength doesn't seem as impressive.
  • The Maximum Strength ability is deceptive. It's meant to a) compensate for lack of magic weapons/armor, b) compensate for lack of Fighting Style, Rage, Smite, hunter's mark, etc., and c) siphon off Ability Score Improvements and feat selections by encouraging you to spend them on Strength. So in a way dragons get fewer ASI than other classes because they need to keep bumping their prime stat well past 8th level in order to take maximum advantage of an important class feature.
  • Likewise, the natural weapons (2d6) are no better than a greatsword, and most other abilities are impressive-looking but mediocre once you do the math and compare it to what a dedicated warrior or spellcaster would do. Dragons look tough but they are secretly a hybrid class, sacrificing martial prowes for spell-like breath weapon damage.
  • The archetypes are a big question mark, balance-wise. I agonized a lot over things like spellcasting progression and the damage of things like cataclysm and tail slap, and in the end, I went with whatever looked like about the same amount of damage as other classes were dishing out, but it is not well-vetted.
If I were going to use dragons in a mixed group with ordinary characters I probably wouldn't allow them until 5th level. At that point, most classes have some cool stuff going on, and while Fly 60 feet is still a great ability, it's no longer game-breaking.

An all-dragon party would be super sweet. That is where the multiclassing rules come in. I could totally see someone taking a few levels of dragon and then branching out into fighter, paladin, or sorcerer. Dragon warlock would be fantastic. It would really be a different approach to D&D fantasy than your standard murder-hobo campaign.
 

Winterthorn

Monster Manager
I actually own a copy of Council of Wyrms; your Dragon PCs pdf brought back some memories :) As an initial work, I think it is very well done even though there are questions of balance as you've mentioned. I have down loaded a copy and I will see if I can get some players to try it out (may take a while to report back, lol).

I have had some players ask me if I would run a Dragonlance campaign. Oddly enough a dragon PC could be very interesting, particulerly if there was a dramatic story arc around that PC. There *is* potential! :)
 
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One thing I have been thinking of is having a dragon cohort campaign, and I think something like this would produce much more interesting dragon-companions than just the vanilla ones. So really, I'd be checking the balance among the dragons.
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
Dunther, that Polymorphed Dragon background is fantastic! I love how you captured the dragon psychology without making them one-dimensional. It's actually something I've been considering as a balancing factor for dragons: just giving all dragons a humanoid form, and saying they're trapped in it for the first 4 levels. Some people may think that's lame but it solves a ton of balance problems.
 


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