Dragonball Z Questions

[Liminal Syzygy]

Really I never got far enough into the later stuff to see what you are talking about, but even when I would take a glance every once in a while - as usual 99% of the content was about fighting.

The Freezer fight was basically finding the biggest badass in the galaxy and taking him out. It was also the culmination of the long buildup of what exactly the legendary "super saiyajin" are.

After Freezer, it lost something for me as:

1) There is only so much you can take of "super saiyajin no kabe wo koeta ato sono sara na kabe wo koeta pawaa!" It seemed to be getting to be a parody of itself in a way.

2) After travelling to alien planets and taking out the biggest badass in the galaxy, it seemed silly that so many people arose on earth that were a challenge to their powers.

And yes you are preaching to the choir as far as the length of the battles. You guys who weren't reading it as it was being written could always go check out the tankobon and read them in one setting, where as for me it took about a real life year for Toriyama to finish the Gokuu fight. But now when you go back to the tankobon you can zip through it quickly and it is a well done epic fight.

 

[Black Omega]

The Freezer fight was basically finding the biggest badass in the galaxy and taking him out. It was also the culmination of the long buildup of what exactly the legendary "super saiyajin" are.

This part they did pretty well. Though there are too long a period of 'I'll fight you using 1% of my power or I'll end it too fast'

1) There is only so much you can take of "super saiyajin no kabe wo koeta ato sono sara na kabe wo koeta pawaa!" It seemed to be getting to be a parody of itself in a way.

Too true. The rumored Dragonball AF would have gone up to SSJ5, it seems. Though yes, this was just a rumor and no work was ever done on another DB series.

2) After travelling to alien planets and taking out the biggest badass in the galaxy, it seemed silly that so many people arose on earth that were a challenge to their powers.

In the anime it wasn't too bad. The only four I can think of off hand that could challenge the Saiyajin were Androids No. 17, 18, Cell and Majin Buu. Cell had 'cells' from Goku so it wasn't to bad. Majin Buu wasn't from earth, he was simply revived there because they needed power and after Freezer, the strongest power was on Earth. 17 and 18 being on that power level is a little more difficult to explain.

And yes you are preaching to the choir as far as the length of the battles. You guys who weren't reading it as it was being written could always go check out the tankobon and read them in one setting, where as for me it took about a real life year for Toriyama to finish the Gokuu fight. But now when you go back to the tankobon you can zip through it quickly and it is a well done epic fight.

The joy of only learning about most anime and manga when they reach the US is that usually they are finished by then.

 

[Alzrius]

Too true. The projected Dragonball AF would have gone up to SSJ5, it seems.

"Projected" nothing. I've looked all over about this rumor, and its just that, a rumor, with no basis in fact. Neither Toriyama (who is quite tired of the series, and wanted to move on long before he did) nor Toei (who learned the hard way through DBGT that the Dragonball series needs Toriyama to be successful) are planning another DB series. Everything that is going to be done with DB/DBZ/DBGT in terms of new material has been done (the possible Fox live action movie notwithstanding).

Originally posted by Black Omega
Toriyama has nothing to do with GT, for good or ill.

The way I heard it, Toriyama drew off a very rough sketch of the storyline and characters for a continued series beyond DBZ right before he left. This doesn't mean he was involved in the series (he wasn't), but still, given that he did turn in those extremely rough sketches of ideas and characters, one wonders if maybe major things like the SSJ4 transformation were his idea or what.

Originally posted by Black Omega
I thought Frieza Saga had some serious problems with pacing and the final battle was -way- to long.

Well, when you consider that it was meant to be the climactic battle of the entire series, that makes sense. Toriyama had already been forced to extend the series further than he initially wanted once, so the Freezer arc was meant to be the end. That's why, politically speaking, that was the greatest battle. Freezer is the evil overlord of the entire galaxy, and killing him freed it from his tyranny.

Originally posted by Cordo
Can you give me a summary of the story arcs of GT? I mean generally are they more DB like romps around the world or fighting ever more escalating bad guys like DBZ?

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The first 15 episodes (or so) are, as Black Omega said, very much in the vein of the original Dragonball, in that Chibi-Goku, Trunks, and Pan are going around the galaxy looking for the dark-star dragonballs. That's the first arc. After that, the rest are much more like DBZ in terms of long fights with highly escalating powers.

After that, the next is the Baby arc, where a villain called Baby takes over Vegeta's body. This is where the SSJ4 transformation is first revealed.

The next arc deals with Android Super 17, a powered-up version of the original Android 17.

The final arc deals with the fight against the evil Shenron.

 

[Black Omega]

"Projected" nothing. I've looked all over about this rumor, and its just that, a rumor, with no basis in fact. Neither Toriyama (who is quite tired of the series, and wanted to move on long before he did) nor Toei (who learned the hard way through DBGT that the Dragonball series needs Toriyama to be successful) are planning another DB series.

Actually, I'm going back to edit my post. I really wasn't trying to suggest DB AF is in the works or ever going to appear. I wasn't really thinking when I typed 'Projected'. At it's best it never got beyond the idea level and has never been a project, and may well have simply been one more internet rumor.

My bad.

 

[Villano]

Power levels given after the death of cyborg freeza and king kold are incorrect as none are given, even by Toriyama. Those are just a bunch of one of the many guessed power level lists on the web. Don't be too interested in them.

Oh, yeah? How would you know? Were you on the show? Huh? Huh?

Oh, um, you were? Nevermind.

Seriously though, I assumed that the numbers were real since I've seen the same (or similar) numbers on 2 other sites. I wonder if these sites picked up the power levels from other sites and thought they were official?

The Freezer fight was basically finding the biggest badass in the galaxy and taking him out. It was also the culmination of the long buildup of what exactly the legendary "super saiyajin" are.

After Freezer, it lost something for me as:

2) After travelling to alien planets and taking out the biggest badass in the galaxy, it seemed silly that so many people arose on earth that were a challenge to their powers.

As Black Omega said, even though most of the action took place on Earth, only a few were actually from it.

Off the top of my head, the superpowered characters introduced (not counting fuzions) in the Android and Majin Buu are (I'm guessing on the spelling of most of these names):

Trunks (future and child)
Goten
Videl
Hercule (he does have super strength)
Androids 16, 17, 18 and 19
Android Dr. Gero
Cell
Spopovich
Yamuu
Yachan
Pui-Pui
Daborah
Babbidi
Maijin Buu (in all his forms)
Uub
The fighters Goku meets in the afterlife like Pikkon and the others whose names I can't remember.

On my above list, those characters up to Yamuu are from Earth.

And, of all the characters, the only ones that are equal or greater in power to Freiza are: Trunks, Goten, Androids 17 & 18, Cell, Daborah, Pikkon (and perhaps other dead fighters), Buu, and Uub.

And, to put that into perspective, Trunks and Goten, as heroes, may not count, and Uub is the reincarnation of Buu. Plus Cell is composed of the DNA of Goku, Piccolo, and others including, I think, Freiza.

And Pikkon and the Otherworld fighters are dead and have been training for God knows how many centuries.

Android 16 might be more powerful as well, but I'm not sure. And Babbidi's magic might qualify him as being more powerful than Freiza, but that's a bit of "apples and oranges" (like asking if Dr. Strange is more powerful than The Hulk).

Basically, only Androids 17 & 18, Buu, and Daborah are independent characters equal or more powerful to Freiza. And, during Freiza's reign over the galaxy, the androids weren't yet built and Buu was sealed away. Only Daborah was roaming around.

For that matter, what the heck was Daborah? Was he an alien or a demon? According to the Cartoon Network dub, he was alien, but this is the channel that changed hell into HFIL (Home For Infinite Losers), so I'm taking that with a grain of salt.

 

[Chauzu]

Oh, yeah? How would you know? Were you on the show? Huh? Huh?

Oh, um, you were? Nevermind.

Bettah recognize, foo.

Seriously though, I assumed that the numbers were real since I've seen the same (or similar) numbers on 2 other sites. I wonder if these sites picked up the power levels from other sites and thought they were official?

I haven't gone site browsing in a couple of years, but back in the 'day', there were a million copycat sites trying to have the same information. Basicly copy-and-paste. Taking a quick browse now, there still are some of these sites at least. Anyways, yeah.

http://www.ultimatedbzinfo.com/

Here's one of the best sites on the web that I still occasionally visit. The news section on the site now-adays are usually a bunch of personnal stuff of the webmaster, but the content is great.

 

[Alzrius]

Plus Cell is composed of the DNA of Goku, Piccolo, and others including, I think, Freiza.

Trying to determine who Cell is "composed" of can be a somewhat daunting task. From what we hear in the anime, he says he is composed of cells from Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Nappa, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo, Freezer, and King Cold. He also mentions that he did not have any of Trunks's DNA incorporated into him because the computer in charge of constructing him calculated that he had enough Saiyan DNA. However, in the alternate timeline that Cell is from, he reveals that he successfully killed Trunks there. Since Trunks mentions later that Cell has none of his cells, it would seem that Cell killed his timeline's Trunks without absorbing him.

And of course, Cell later absorbs Androids 17 & 18, as well as thousands upon thousands of ordinary people.

And Pikkon and the Otherworld fighters are dead and have been training for God knows how many centuries.

This probably doesn't need to be mentioned, but the DBZ cosmology has no "God" per se. Also, what they just called the Otherworld was originally called Heaven.

Android 16 might be more powerful as well, but I'm not sure. And Babbidi's magic might qualify him as being more powerful than Freiza, but that's a bit of "apples and oranges" (like asking if Dr. Strange is more powerful than The Hulk).

In reference to Android 16, I'm assuming that you mean "more powerful" than Freezer, yes? That seems like a safe bet to make, using the following line of reasoning:

Goku is stronger than Freezer when he begins fighting Android 19.
Vegeta appears to be of roughly equal strength when he fights Android 19.
Androids 17 & 18 are stronger than Vegeta, initially.
Cell, when he returns, is stronger than Androids 17 & 18.
Android 16 is equal to Cell then.

While Babidi was able to cast spells on very powerful beings (such as Vegeta) the incredible ease with which Piccolo, and later Buu, were able to dispatch him with seems like a good case that, in terms of martial power (if not ki), he was quite weak, compared to the people around him.

Basically, only Androids 17 & 18, Buu, and Daborah are independent characters equal or more powerful to Freiza.

What exactly do you mean by "independant"? No one was controlling Cell, certainly.

And, during Freiza's reign over the galaxy, the androids weren't yet built and Buu was sealed away. Only Daborah was roaming around.

For that matter, what the heck was Daborah? Was he an alien or a demon? According to the Cartoon Network dub, he was alien, but this is the channel that changed hell into HFIL (Home For Infinite Losers), so I'm taking that with a grain of salt.

He apparently wasn't "roaming around", although Babidi most certainly was. The only information I've been able to find on Dabura is that he was the "king of the demon world". This isn't much help though, as the cosmology in the DBZ-universe that I've seen doesn't include a "demon world" per se. There is a Hell, but it is where evil people do when they die, not a harboring ground for any sort of demons.

 

[Villano]

What exactly do you mean by "independant"? No one was controlling Cell, certainly.

I used "independent" in the sense that they exist in and of themselves. Androids 16, 17, and 18 as well as Daborah aren't offshoots of previously existing characters. Granted, the Androids were built to fight Goku, but their strength is their own. They were built that strong, they aren't made up of other beings.

Uub, Cell, and the fused characters need others just to be. Gotenks is composed of Goten and Trunks. Cell is made up of the DNA of others. And Uub, being Buu's reincarnation, could just be considered another of Buu's forms. Each of their powers are based on the strength of others.

Uub is only as strong as he is because he is really Buu. And Cell is stronger than Freiza because he's composed of people who are equal to or stronger than Freiza.

Android 18, OTOH, was built as strong as she is. She isn't made up of the parts of others, so she's just plain stronger than Freiza in the same way Goku is.

 

[Alzrius]

Quick sidebar before I begin: His name is Ubu, or Uubu, IIRC. Not Uub.

That said, I suppose I see what you mean, but I don't see why you bother making the distinction. Who cares if the Androids were built at their power level, and Cell got his strength from DNA from other people? It's not like it really makes a difference.

However, I do see where you're coming from, in that you're comparing them all to Freezer. Given that Toriyama wanted to end the series with the Freezer battle, its interesting to compare later characters to Freezer and ask "where were they then?" since they didn't challenge Freezer's empire over the galaxy. Personally, I think Toriyama did a great job explaining things in that regard.

About Androids 17 & 18 though, don't forget they were normal humans before Dr. Gero altered them, so you can't really say they were "built" as strong as they were. Rather, their power was vastly increased (though not by ki) by the operations Gero did on them. ("Android" was the English appellation, and isn't entirely appropriate, since the Japanese word for android, "andoroido", wasn't used. They were called jinzouningen, which basically means artificial human.)

 

[Villano]

Quick sidebar before I begin: His name is Ubu, or Uubu, IIRC. Not Uub.

I've never seen the original version. I'm just going by the english translation which gave his name as "Uub".

That said, I suppose I see what you mean, but I don't see why you bother making the distinction. Who cares if the Androids were built at their power level, and Cell got his strength from DNA from other people? It's not like it really makes a difference.

However, I do see where you're coming from, in that you're comparing them all to Freezer. Given that Toriyama wanted to end the series with the Freezer battle, its interesting to compare later characters to Freezer and ask "where were they then?" since they didn't challenge Freezer's empire over the galaxy. Personally, I think Toriyama did a great job explaining things in that regard.

Yeah. What I wrote was in response to Cordo's statement:

"2) After travelling to alien planets and taking out the biggest badass in the galaxy, it seemed silly that so many people arose on earth that were a challenge to their powers."

I just was trying to point out that there really weren't that many people who were equal to Freiza, and only a few were from Earth.

I pointed out that Uub was in fact Buu, so technically that's just one character. And Cell was stronger than Freiza by virtue of actually having a part of Freiza in him (not to mention Goku, Piccolo, etc).

And, like Uub, the fused characters artificially inflate the number of "more powerful than Freiza". Vigito is stronger than Freiza because he's made up of Goku and Vegita, who are both stronger than him.

The only one that really could have presented a challenge to Freiza's reign was Daborah (since Androids 16, 17, and 18 didn't exist, yet). Looking around the net, it appears that he was from another dimension, so that would explain why the two never crossed swords.

About Androids 17 & 18 though, don't forget they were normal humans before Dr. Gero altered them, so you can't really say they were "built" as strong as they were. Rather, their power was vastly increased (though not by ki) by the operations Gero did on them. ("Android" was the English appellation, and isn't entirely appropriate, since the Japanese word for android, "andoroido", wasn't used. They were called jinzouningen, which basically means artificial human.)

I wasn't aware of that, but I kind of figured that there was something wrong with the "android" translation considering that 18 had a child. I had assumed they were grown somehow similar to Cell, but then I saw 16 get damaged and he had robotic parts, so then I didn't know what to think.

After all, it's an action comic and a cartoon, so it really isn't built upon a foundation of science.