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Dragonborn in Faerun

gyor

Legend
Elves and Dwarves did not come first in the realms, the creator races and giants did during the Days of Thunder.

The creator races are the reptilian Sarrulk first, then the amphibious and aquatic Batrachi, then the birdlike Aaeree (I may have misspell this), the Fey Leshay, and finally humans yes, humans.

To count as a creator race one has to be native to Toril and create empires. And while the human empire during the days of Thunder is a rumour, they were at least invovled in the other empires.

And the Dwarf, Dragon, and elf empires came later, and yes any human civilization was ash by that time, and it was only later that humans were influence by elf civilizations and then built there own.
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Elves and Dwarves did not come first in the realms, the creator races and giants did during the Days of Thunder.

The creator races are the reptilian Sarrulk first, then the amphibious and aquatic Batrachi, then the birdlike Aaeree (I may have misspell this), the Fey Leshay, and finally humans yes, humans.

To count as a creator race one has to be native to Toril and create empires. And while the human empire during the days of Thunder is a rumour, they were at least invovled in the other empires.

And the Dwarf, Dragon, and elf empires came later, and yes any human civilization was ash by that time, and it was only later that humans were influence by elf civilizations and then built there own.

Correct, they did not come first, first. But they were first in relation to the elven, dwarven, and human civilizations.

But the point was that humans would have a different perspective on intelligent races that occupied the realms before them, and helped them build their civilization than new races that came later.

Ilbranteloth
 

Hussar

Legend
raceplanetouched.jpg


Seriously? That's your idea of subtle? That guy has flaming hair. As in literally on fire. The water genasi has scales. The Tiefling I was most familiar with came from Planescape which describes their diet thusly:

Tieflings prefer to eat only meat, blood, bone, and marrow, preferably raw. They enjoy balaena blubber, gristle, and even roasted insects, which most races find disturbing. They drink strange concoctions of broth, oil, sulphur, and firewater, though they’ll hoist an ale with any bubber in Sigil if nothing else is available. When meat is unavailable, they can live for short perions on ashes, coal, and other mineral matter.

Again, we're talking about things that are pretty bloody far from humans.

Sure, if we're going to posit a Forgotten Realms that only draws from material written pre-1990, then fair enough. Most of the things that have been added to the setting hadn't been invented yet. I mean, by the time you're talking about, virtually none of the Drow material that we accept now, had been written. The first Waterdeep supplement doesn't come out until '87. How much of a Realms purist should we be?

And, really, it makes it really hard to have conversations about the Realms when everyone starts drawing cut off lines. "Well, in the Realms as presented by such and such a date, this would be true." Fair enough, but, who cares? Why are we talking about that? Why not deal with the Realms as it's being presented today, rather than play "Guess the Era"?
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Those genasi pictures you posted weren't very "human" looking. Still the flaming hair and green skin. Still very "out there" and certainly not "human with a touch of otherness".

And remember, there were humans on Abeir. Lots of them. The majority. And probably elves and Dwarves and such. Same standard races. We don't know how the dragons created the dragonborn. Make up your own reasons why they are humanoid.

I agree that they were still more obvious than I like, and also not entirely in line with the description in the text. But they aren't nearly as obvious as the ones pictured nowadays.

It's not that the dragonborn is not that they lived with other humanoids like humans and dwarves. While civilizations can be impacted by other civilizations, evolution is not. Dragonborn are designed like a human in a dragon-person costume, in both appearance and culture. I find that uninspiring, and also wonder what's the point?

The point is that they want a game where every PC race is a roughly humanoid creature, of small or medium build, that will fit the same armor and can use the same weapons as other humanoids. In our world, during medieval times, there was a wide range of civilized cultures. While the middle ages of armored troops armed with swords was prevalent in Europe, with variations in Asia, vastly different (usually considered more primitive) cultures existed in Australia, other parts of Asia, Africa, and the Americas. Our needs and desires are one thing, why wouldn't the dragonborn value something different? Why would they build the same types of cities and towns, instead of something entirely unique?

If I were to design a race related to dragons, it would be quite different. They'd probably have wings and tails, to start. And I still wouldn't just dump them into the Forgotten Realms. I wouldn't design them with a singular point of view for the entire race either. Like humans, elves, dwarves, etc. they would have subraces and complex societies, and be one of the dominant races, if not the dominant race in their world. If they were enslaved by dragons, then they most likely would develop underground cities, with tunnels too small for the dragons. Their combat tactics would be centered on attacking from many different directions at once, from cave mouths with stone doors about 20-feet into the cave that could be shut quickly to protect against the dragon's breath weapons. Ranged weapons and magic would be preferred where possible, and melee combat would most likely center on their natural weapons and their own breath weapons.

Being partially quadrupedal they'd be good climbers, and I'm not sure they would develop the same types of weapons as humans because they would be accomplished hunters without having to resort to weapons. Humans require weapons to bring down large prey. A few dragonborn, particularly with wings, would be able to bring down prey with little difficulty in a group. As a result, I'm not sure they'd ever need to develop animal husbandry, or raise herds of animals, although it's possible that if civilization grew that they might.

On the other hand, as able hunters, and being well suited for self defense as well as hunting, they may not have needed to gather together in groups to take advantage of the benefits of farming (especially if they are carnivores) and protection that a larger settlement provides. Without dragon oppressors they might be more likely to live as nomads and roving hunters within their extended family or clan, with fierce rivalries over territories and prey among clans.

Nomadic hunting clans are also not conducive to mining activities. So metal weapons, particularly steel which would require the evolution of advanced mining and metallurgy techniques, may not be part of their culture at all. Being strong with natural weapons, a show of strength with their natural weapons might also be considered more honorable.

If they primarily live a nomadic life following migratory prey, they may not have to develop a sophisticated language, particularly written. Trade as we know it, or currency, with the need for minted coins or some equivalent may not have a need to develop either.

Humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, and similar races have little natural protection or weapons. They rely on numbers for safety, clothing and shelter in hostile environments, agriculture to support civilization, and sophisticated languages to foster the trade in service, work, and goods that life in an organized civilization requires. In addition, their young are helpless for an extended period of time, and need the care of a family to survive. While it's entirely possible that a race of draconic humanoids could evolve in this fashion, I think it's unlikely. There are too many differences in the physiology and biology to expect that they would grow along the same trajectory.

There are so many places they could have gone. And yes, there are some contradictions above, this is just a stream-of-thought look at what could be. But this all depends on them having a well developed world of their own.

Ilbranteloth
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
raceplanetouched.jpg


Seriously? That's your idea of subtle? That guy has flaming hair. As in literally on fire. The water genasi has scales...

Again, we're talking about things that are pretty bloody far from humans.

As I said, it doesn't quite match the description given in the text. But if that's just bright red hair, instead of flaming, it's not that different.

The 3.5 picture has hair and no scales:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net.../Genasi.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080819171438

The very pale skin of the air genasi and the green skin of the water genasi are still a bit more than I'd like, but they could pass as something exotic. On the other hand, they wouldn't get as old as pictured in Calimshan if they looked like that.

Sure, if we're going to posit a Forgotten Realms that only draws from material written pre-1990, then fair enough. Most of the things that have been added to the setting hadn't been invented yet. I mean, by the time you're talking about, virtually none of the Drow material that we accept now, had been written. The first Waterdeep supplement doesn't come out until '87. How much of a Realms purist should we be?

And, really, it makes it really hard to have conversations about the Realms when everyone starts drawing cut off lines. "Well, in the Realms as presented by such and such a date, this would be true." Fair enough, but, who cares? Why are we talking about that? Why not deal with the Realms as it's being presented today, rather than play "Guess the Era"?

Well, I think a lot of people care. I care. Although there wasn't a particular direction in the original post, by the 10th post there was an opinion (that received XP) that the way WotC dumped the dragonborn into the FR was not great. And the discussion has continued.

I have been very forthcoming in pointing out that this is how I run my Realms, and that it's based on an early publishing era. But dragonborn in the Forgotten Realms appear to have the most support in Erin's novels. I just went through the 4th ed Campaign Setting, Neverwinter Campaign Setting, and the SCAG and they are mentioned only in places related to Returned Abeir, Tymanther, and their immediate neighbors in the 4th Ed. I don't know if there was an adventure that included more information. In terms of organizations, they are mentioned as being involved with the Cult of the Dragon (in the 4th Ed campaign guide and the random encounter tables of Neverwinter), and they, or their 'half-dragon' clones, are all over in Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat.

Other than Returned Abeir and its affects, dragonborn, and the morphing of the descriptions from the 3rd Edition Campaign Setting, my campaign is largely canon with the current age. I've dealt with the issues by keeping to the original description of the planetouched, and eliminating most of the Returned Abeir story line that was effectively retconned anyway. That leaves the dragonborn as described. And based on the published game material, they exist outside of Tymanther only in relationship with the Cult of the Dragon, or in relation to Chessenta's veneration of Tchazzar. Having not read the novels, I can't comment. So it's almost 100% in line with the lore, classes, and such until the end of 3rd ed, and retains some of that from 4th edition, and the majority of the 5th edition. In fact, there is exactly a page-and-a-half of material regarding dragonborn in the SCAG, and that's the only material I do not retain so far in all of the 5th edition material published regarding the Realms.

I'm wondering if anybody can point me in the direction of any statement in the official FR game materials that states dragonborn even exist outside of Tymanther. Because I haven't found it.

The bottom line for me is that not everybody is happy with the way WotC has handled the racial, class and lore additions to the Realms. That the most egregious of this occurred during the 4th edition is irrelevant, other than a lot of it has been brushed away to bring things closer to where they were in the 3rd edition. I don't feel that my opinion should be yours. But I do think that it's important for other DMs to understand that it's OK to stick to your guns regarding your world, even if it's a published world.

Ilbranteloth
 

Hussar

Legend
I agree that they were still more obvious than I like, and also not entirely in line with the description in the text. But they aren't nearly as obvious as the ones pictured nowadays.

It's not that the dragonborn is not that they lived with other humanoids like humans and dwarves. While civilizations can be impacted by other civilizations, evolution is not. Dragonborn are designed like a human in a dragon-person costume, in both appearance and culture. I find that uninspiring, and also wonder what's the point?

The point is that they want a game where every PC race is a roughly humanoid creature, of small or medium build, that will fit the same armor and can use the same weapons as other humanoids. In our world, during medieval times, there was a wide range of civilized cultures. While the middle ages of armored troops armed with swords was prevalent in Europe, with variations in Asia, vastly different (usually considered more primitive) cultures existed in Australia, other parts of Asia, Africa, and the Americas. Our needs and desires are one thing, why wouldn't the dragonborn value something different? Why would they build the same types of cities and towns, instead of something entirely unique?

Hang on though. You can't have it both ways. You can't, on one hand, claim that it's perfectly fine to have elves and dwarves standing side by side with humans because they aren't very different so they are acceptable, and then complain that Dragonborn aren't different enough, so they're boring, and STILL too different to be acceptable in standard company.

It's either/or. Either the races are not human and therefore interesting, but, not really acceptable to have them commonly mixing because of those differences, or they're closer to human and thus boring, but can mix easily.
 

Hussar

Legend
Maybe this can explain my point better.

The issue is that Dragonborn are too alien to be easily accepted in polite society.

The counter argument is that this is a setting with all sorts of weird races, such as elephant people with two trunks, people with hair on fire etc. Additionally, we're talking about an area around Waterdeep, a very cosmopolitan port city with ships arriving daily from all over the setting and an area where travel and access to the greater setting is not only not difficult but also expected and built in.

So, cherry picking canon and then trying to claim generalizations doesn't work. Sure sometimes grenadine have been pictured as fairly subtle. Sometimes not. You can't have one without the other. If we all played in the same game, then fine no problem.

But you can't claim that Dragonborn aren't acceptable based on only using a specific subset of canon. It would be like me saying all orcs are pig faced humans a la 1e DND. Canon evolves and in discussions about canon elements you don't get to pick and choose what applies and what doesn't.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Hang on though. You can't have it both ways. You can't, on one hand, claim that it's perfectly fine to have elves and dwarves standing side by side with humans because they aren't very different so they are acceptable, and then complain that Dragonborn aren't different enough, so they're boring, and STILL too different to be acceptable in standard company.

It's either/or. Either the races are not human and therefore interesting, but, not really acceptable to have them commonly mixing because of those differences, or they're closer to human and thus boring, but can mix easily.

Were not sophisticated enough to have multiple points of views?

They don't fit into my Forgotten Realms primarily because of their appearance, but also because I don't think their culture, nor the time they have been on Toril, would make enough of them leave their land to establish themselves as a standard race. Those are my complaints regarding dragonborn in the Forgotten Realms.

The second is on the design of the nature of the dragonborn, along with the similar approach regarding almost any playable 'monstrous' race, that their culture, philosophy, and society are based on human concepts, rather than being a unique and different approach.

My point is, that to do something like dragonborn really well, they would be very different, particularly from humans, and would work best as the center of a campaign in a different world. That doesn't relate to the Forgotten Realms directly, but rather with my dislike of the design of dragonborn in general.

Ilbranteloth
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Maybe this can explain my point better.

The issue is that Dragonborn are too alien to be easily accepted in polite society.

The counter argument is that this is a setting with all sorts of weird races, such as elephant people with two trunks, people with hair on fire etc. Additionally, we're talking about an area around Waterdeep, a very cosmopolitan port city with ships arriving daily from all over the setting and an area where travel and access to the greater setting is not only not difficult but also expected and built in.

So, cherry picking canon and then trying to claim generalizations doesn't work. Sure sometimes grenadine have been pictured as fairly subtle. Sometimes not. You can't have one without the other. If we all played in the same game, then fine no problem.

But you can't claim that Dragonborn aren't acceptable based on only using a specific subset of canon. It would be like me saying all orcs are pig faced humans a la 1e DND. Canon evolves and in discussions about canon elements you don't get to pick and choose what applies and what doesn't.


I thought we were talking about whether we liked dragonborn in the Forgotten Realms, not Realms canon. Does that mean that only those that have and incorporate all officially published Realms products can participate? Is there anybody that plays it 100% canon?

And my orcs look like the ones sculpted by Tom Meier for Ral Partha c1979:

http://www.ralpartha.com/images/Orcs-RossR.jpg

As I have always said, this is how I run my Forgotten Realms. As I mentioned before, and it is specifically noted in the campaign settings of older editions, the SCAG, Elminter's Forgotten Realms, etc: (paraphrasing) This is your Forgotten Realms. Pick what you like. Ignore what your don't. Make it your own.

I have. I like what I've got.

Perhaps there are some who come to the Realms later than me that don't realize that it was originally published as a very Tolkienesque setting that was extremely humanocentric, and that decisions made to homogenized this unique works had robbed it of some of that uniqueness.

Surely we can discuss what we like and don't like about the setting? And how we use the setting in our campaign?

Ilbranteloth
 

Hussar

Legend
Fair enough. But you have to realize that the criteria you are applying only applies in your game though. I don't like DB is fine. I don't like DB because they are so alien that I can't believe that they could be acceptable in society in FR is a whole 'nother argument.
 

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