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Dragonborn in Faerun

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
And if you go with the Dragonborn and their country being dropped into the Forgotten Realms, who is going to wander off to other lands? Farmers? Oh wait, they are probably carnivores, aren't they? Merchants? They aren't human, what are they trading? What are they trading for? Why are they bipedal, instead of at least occasionally quadrupedal? Why did they build a human-like society and culture?



Ilbranteloth

This seems like a stretch, to me.

They would trade for those raw materials and finished goods that they want to use, but don't have much of, in exchange for those raw materials and finished goods of which they have surplus. Just like everyone else. Being dragony has no effect on that, at all.
Regardless of what you think about the logic of them having built a human like society and culture, they clearly did, so they would interact with other nations in much the same ways that human nations do. Or elven nations. Or Dwarven ones.

Also, many people travel because they want to, and this has been true in literally every era. It's more true now that ever before, sure, but even in the so called Dark Ages, people left home on merchant ships to seek their fortune, and often found some foreign shore upon which to "go native", and/or brought some part of their family with them to some foreign land, once they'd made the contacts and gathered the resources to do so.

Why shouldn't dragonborn do the same, especially in the 100 years where they had a fairly powerful, quite stable homeland, and plenty of their own kind in other lands?

And in their current state, yeah, they are definately going to be trading, engaging in diplomacy in foreign lands, etc. It's more reasonable to see a Tymantheran DB in Waterdeep than to see someone from most places east of the Heartlands, because Tymanther needs support, resources, allies, etc, and they aren't going to get it by having every single DB in the Realms hunkered down in trenches.

But the point was that humans would have a different perspective on intelligent races that occupied the realms before them, and helped them build their civilization than new races that came later.

Ilbranteloth

I strongly doubt it.

Humans have short memories, and are quick to make friends and enemies. And the various novels make it seem like humans aren't really all that enamored of elves, on the whole, IMO.


Also, I don't think that any FR novel I've ever read touches on human civilization being built with the help of elves and dwarves, etc.
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
This seems like a stretch, to me.

They would trade for those raw materials and finished goods that they want to use, but don't have much of, in exchange for those raw materials and finished goods of which they have surplus. Just like everyone else. Being dragony has no effect on that, at all.
Regardless of what you think about the logic of them having built a human like society and culture, they clearly did, so they would interact with other nations in much the same ways that human nations do. Or elven nations. Or Dwarven ones.

Also, many people travel because they want to, and this has been true in literally every era. It's more true now that ever before, sure, but even in the so called Dark Ages, people left home on merchant ships to seek their fortune, and often found some foreign shore upon which to "go native", and/or brought some part of their family with them to some foreign land, once they'd made the contacts and gathered the resources to do so.

Why shouldn't dragonborn do the same, especially in the 100 years where they had a fairly powerful, quite stable homeland, and plenty of their own kind in other lands?

And in their current state, yeah, they are definately going to be trading, engaging in diplomacy in foreign lands, etc. It's more reasonable to see a Tymantheran DB in Waterdeep than to see someone from most places east of the Heartlands, because Tymanther needs support, resources, allies, etc, and they aren't going to get it by having every single DB in the Realms hunkered down in trenches.

I strongly doubt it.

Humans have short memories, and are quick to make friends and enemies. And the various novels make it seem like humans aren't really all that enamored of elves, on the whole, IMO.

Also, I don't think that any FR novel I've ever read touches on human civilization being built with the help of elves and dwarves, etc.

First, I don't think they have a 'quite stable homeland.' They have a homeland that has been dropped into another world, where they have developed a reasonable trading relationship with one neighbor (High Imaskar), who happens to be in constant battle with their other neighbor (Chessenta). In terms of their relationship with Chessenta, in the campaign guide it's all good, but in the one novel that I think it has any information (Whisper of Venom), they are moving toward war. With their other Returned Abeir neighbors, they have poor relationships. In addition, they landed in a portion of the Realms that has a history of being isolationist, being in perpetual conflict with their immediate neighbors, and little contact with the rest of Faerûn. Their primary focus, aside from the relationships and conflicts of these immediate neighbors is hunting down and killing dragons. While this in itself would be viewed as heroic by other civilizations, it doesn't really build political relationships. Adventurers are rare to begin with, and while a single dragonborn might be met with indifference, or even intolerance, a group of them, armed for battle, coming into a town would probably be somewhat alarming. If you're a farmer in a small village and a half-dozen or more heavily armed 7' tall draconic 'men' wander into town, I don't think you'd find it normal.

The elven/human connections are well documented in Realms supplements. Myth Drannor and Silverymoon are two examples, later Illefarn, etc. The rise of Netheril was directly because the elven nations taught the humans magic. The major exceptions being the Old Empires (humans from another plane) and Calimshan.

And you're right, in general the humans, elves, etc. do have somewhat reserved interactions. Again, humans are predominant. Waterdeep is 64% human, with elves (mostly moon) and shield dwarves around 10% each. Lightfoot halflings and half-elves 5% each, gnomes 3% and half-orcs 2%, all other races are 1% of the population. It's one of the most accepting of cities. But Waterdeep is a long way away, support, resources and allies need to come from much closer to be in sufficient amounts, and for a reasonable price. That means by ship from any number of the ports on the Sea of Fallen Stars, or neighboring lands. Not far away Waterdeep. Humans are described as out pacing even the orcs in their growth, and the elves don't always see that as a good thing (part of the reason for the Retreat).

But regardless of that - how far into the Americas did Europeans travel in the first 100 years after Columbus? How many Europeans traveled to the Middle East (other than Crusaders) or China in the Dark Ages? Or Africa? India, perhaps? And when Europeans did start visiting other location in sizeable numbers, what was their general approach? For individuals and small groups, it was usually a religious pilgrimage. Or missionaries, which adds the intent to convert the natives to our way of thinking. When war proved expensive or impractical, colonization. Make them like us, or kill them.

Among civilizations in times of peace, aside from pilgrimages, merchants were the primary travelers. They would come to a new land, and yes, the merchants of Tymanther would also travel (once again because we have a humanized society with money using the same gold standard and they speak the same 'common' even though they are from different worlds). Land caravans find what? Chessenta, great regions of desolation and destruction, and Thay. Trade by ship would also be very likely, assuming they build ships. Pilgrimages don't exist, because they dragonborn don't worship any deities, nor do they have any holy sites in Toril, even if they did.

Cultural, religious and language barriers are huge in societies. More so among different races. Because of Chessenta's worship of Tchazzar it makes sense that they would treat the dragonborn a certain way, but other sources indicate Chessenta is on the brink of war with Tymanther. In addition, the Cult of the Dragon has actively recruited them, which means that as they spread slowly throughout Toril, many people's first interaction with them would be based on that.

Aside from all of that, like the majority of the changes made by the 4th edition, Tymanther is largely gone at this point, with Unther's return. Unlike many of the other changes back (like the Sea of Fallen Stars returning to it's old borders and the removal of the huge chasm to the southwest of Tymanther), Unther returned and is at war with what's left of Tymanther, driving it to small holdings that remain. To me, this seems like they did it in a way to allow the dragonborn to remain for those that liked them in their campaigns, and a way for those that didn't to continue to ignore them since they are no longer a potential major player in the published Realms. As I mentioned before, the Saurials existed in two novels, and promptly disappeared. They were added to Malatra, the RPGA's Living Jungle campaign, but have basically disappeared.

I get that dragonborn are more popular, though, and I accept that WotC needs to provide a story line to allow dragonborn characters in the Realms, particularly since they had already added them. So they can't eliminate them altogether, since there will be players in public adventures that want to play them. And I also understand that my view of the history of the Realms isn't the same that everybody else shares. We all have different likes/dislikes, and when we first come to the Realms has a big impact as well. My Realms is much closer to what I imagine Ed Greenwood's Realms are like, and Elminster's Forgotten Realms bears that out quite well. It's a shared world, and I'm fine with the majority of what's been written, and I love having other writers providing stories of the world because it helps it to be a more living world to me. In a home-grown world I'd have to make everything up myself, and it wouldn't have the same impact for me. But that doesn't mean that I have to like or use everything they publish.

Ilbranteloth
 


Ilbranteloth

Explorer
So I have a question. Where in the Forgotten Realms game supplements does it indicate that dragonborn are known throughout Faerun?

I've found, in the 4th Edition Campaign Setting:
'They sometimes send small groups of elite warriors to track down known lairs of powerful dragons. Sometimes they return, sometimes they don't.'

'Despite Tymanther's desire for friendly relations with others, it has one few true allies. High Imaskar...Chessenta.'

'Dragonborn who achieve fame abroad are celebrates as state heroes back in Tymanther. The dragonborn see these few as emissaries of their race, proving to the wide continent of Faerun that they have nothing to fear from dragonborn.'

In the Neverwinter campaign settings, the only times I found the word 'dragonborn' is in two random encounter tables. One for New Neverwinter, and one for the Cult of the Dragon. Both are the same - a dragonborn mercenary and a dragonborn soldier.

Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (4th Ed): About 3/4 of a page including:
'Faerûn holds many new possibilities, new opportunities, without any of the prejudices of their past. Dragonborn are eager to explore and to extend the hand of friendship to their neighbors. Having no thirst for war, dragonborn work hard to achieve peaceful relations with those they meet and struggle to establish themselves as a viable nation in the tapestry of lands that make up Toril. Unfortunately for them, the strangeness of their customs and their uncertain origins casts many suspicions on the dragonborn and their motives, making establishing long-lasting alliances a challenge. ' and

This adherence to proper behavior eclipses the race’s views toward the gods. Since Abeir was without divine influence, at least in a way that most people of Toril understand, dragonborn regard the gods and their servants with suspicion, for they have ever held themselves accountable for their own actions and never to the expectations of others, especially to some remote god or other. Although a few dragonborn have found themselves in the service of traditionally wicked institutions*, they cannot share the tenets and beliefs of the organizations they serve.

And yes, this entry is under a section called other common races. But looking at the number of times they appear in print, and the even fewer times it's more than a sentence, I'd disagree.

*Although we find, particularly in relationship to the HotDQ/RoT adventures that the most common published dragonborn is a member of the Cult of the Dragon.

Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide:
'Some of Tymanther's dragonborn have spread across Faerun and gained reputations at competent, highly sought-after mercenaries.' and

'For a time, the dragonborn of Tymanther sought to integrate with their new world while maintaining their own traditions and culture. These efforts gave the nation and its people a reputation for being honorable and worthy of respect. Only a few generations later, however, the events of the Sundering returned Unther to Faerun, and the formerly displaced land sought to reclaim all it had lost to Tymanther. Reeling from this disaster, the remaining dragonborn in Faerun now find they must work even harder and with fewer resources to find their place among the people the world.'

From Defiance in Phlan (one NPC encounter):
'However, she has already been attacked twice by bandits while in Phlan, and everyone stares at her because of her white dragon heritage.'

Pool of Radiance Resurgent: One random encounter with a dragonborn druid member of the Emerald Enclave.

Dark Pyramid Sorceres of the Isle: Dragonborn thug and a mage, both members of the Cult of the Dragon.

Outlaws of the Iron Route: Main foe is a 'crazed' dragonborn sorceress.

Tyranny in Phlan: Dragonborn working for/allied with a green dragon and the Cult of the Dragon

Rise of Tiamat: A copper dragon is cautious of an alliance, instead of desiring it.

Search for the Diamond Staff: One comment:
'Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Others: In general "these races aren’t from around here" People in the Dales are used to seeing outlandish foreigners wander through and so they rarely give such individuals notice.'

-This is the first, and so far only comment of this nature I've found.

The Fall of Elturgard (Living Forgotten Realms): An NPC member of the Shields of Kilgrave adventuring party.

Age of Ruin: Set in the Abyss, there are survivors of a slaughter. Where and what depends on who the PCs called on for help. If they called on Tymanther, there is a 'maimed dragonborn Lance Defender.'

Scepter Tower of Spellgard: Dragonborn NPC looking for a mate.

They show up a few times as NPCs in a number of Living Forgotten Realms adventures, but those have always been debated as whether they are canon or not, in part due to their small distribution.

---

So, in published game materials, with the exception of two sentences in one adventure, and a vague and self-contradictory comment that could refer to the specific dragonborn in question, or the race, about being 'competent, highly-sought after' mercenaries, there is almost nothing that indicates the dragonborn have had any impact on the Realms at all, outside of Unther and their immediate neighbors.

The vast majority of references account for a sentence or two, and most of them are hostile NPCs, and again the majority of them with ties to the Cult of the Dragon. Yes, most of these come from adventures related to the HotDQ/RoT series, but they were even specifically called out as such in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting. If most people's knowledge of dragonborn are related to the Cult of the Dragon, particularly following the Cult's most recent activities, if they weren't suspicious before hand, they would be even more so now.

By the volume of written material, that among two Campaign Settings, two Players' Guides (SCAG one of them), plus all of the mentions in the adventures above account for less than 5 pages of material out of hundreds, even more than a thousand published pages. There is a well written and highly regarded series of novels. But there is a very long series of novels about a drow, and yet they still remain very rare on the surface world, and almost universally shunned, even after more than 100 years of Drizzt fighting for good.

I have no idea how popular they are as a player race, but the published record looks like another one of a great many 'great ideas' for the Forgotten Realms that didn't pan out, and which they now retconning as much as possible.

I think this supports my general thoughts that most cultures would distrust, if not actually shun, dragonborn, and that they have not spread widely thorugh the Forgotten Realms in the 100 years they ave been on Toril.

Ilbranteloth
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
So I have a question. Where in the Forgotten Realms game supplements does it indicate that dragonborn are known throughout Faerun?

I've found -snip-

I have no idea how popular they are as a player race, but the published record looks like another one of a great many 'great ideas' for the Forgotten Realms that didn't pan out, and which they now retconning as much as possible.

I think this supports my general thoughts that most cultures would distrust, if not actually shun, dragonborn, and that they have not spread widely thorugh the Forgotten Realms in the 100 years they ave been on Toril.

Ilbranteloth

So, I'm not sure how you can read all that and conclude anything other than that DB are widely known, probably respected and sought after as mercenaries (after all, even if that one passage refers to a specific group, there are a lot of DB merc npcs in published encounters), and have a habit of leaving their homeland to explore the Realms. I mean, some of those literally prove that by canon people (either in general, or in a given area) are used to seeing dragonborn and other foreigners.

"Search for the Diamond Staff: One comment:
'Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Others: In general "these races aren’t from around here" People in the Dales are used to seeing outlandish foreigners wander through and so they rarely give such individuals notice.'"

That is an explicit statement that while the newer races don't live in the Dales in any big numbers, folk are used to seeing them, to the point where they don't even make much note of them.

Another explicit statement that they, until very, very recently, travelled far and wide, worked to build good relations with other nations, and gained a strong and widely known rep as good guys: "Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide:
'Some of Tymanther's dragonborn have spread across Faerun and gained reputations at competent, highly sought-after mercenaries.' and

'For a time, the dragonborn of Tymanther sought to integrate with their new world while maintaining their own traditions and culture. These efforts gave the nation and its people a reputation for being honorable and worthy of respect.

There are also explicit statements that DB in service to evil organizations is rare, and that list them as a common race. Those statements outweigh and completely negate weird considerations like how often they appear as NPCs of a given time in published adventures.

As for how stable their homeland was before the sundering (which is what I was talking about), it was stable enough for them to build large cities, and for their people to develop the habit of seeking fortunes elsewhere and then coming back, rather than emigrating elsewhere for better opportunities, which rarely involves going back to one's homeland. It may not make sense to you that they have a stable homeland, but they almost inarguably do. OR did. Before the proverbial hacksaw hit the proverbial bone.

Random side question: why is it weird for you that they aren't quadrupeds? Just the fact that dragons are? Did half dragons become quadrupedal? Draconians? IIRC, none of DnD's dragon people have even been, so why should the Dragonborn be?

"The elven/human connections are well documented in Realms supplements."

Sure. But not in any novels I've ever read, including a lot of the most popular ones, like the Drizzt and Elminster books, The Cleric Quintet, Paul Kemp's stuff, and lots of short stories by various people. SO, I very easily might be missing some, but it's just not something I think of as a big important part of FR. It's interesting history, but that's different.

"how far into the Americas did Europeans travel in the first 100 years after Columbus? How many Europeans traveled to the Middle East (other than Crusaders) or China in the Dark Ages? Or Africa? India, perhaps?"

Not sure how the first is a relevant comparison? The DB aren't trying to expand colonies, take other people's lands, spread an ideology, etc. They want to trade, and make friends. ANd the setting books explicitly say that they made great efforts to do so. Therefor, they did, as long as we're talking about non houseruled/homebrewed DB.

So, again, this isn't an issue with dragonborn, as such. There's no inconsistency there, it just differs from your realms. WHich is fine, I don't use a lot of what I view as cheap retcons in the sundering. Netheril is still a viable, albeit reduced, nation. People still resent Sembia, so there is no "and they went back to their old trading habits" nonsense. Myth Drannor is still there, because Netheril's floating cities were grounded after the war with the Heartlands, and their magic turned to keeping the desert livable in spite of the old curse coming back. So now Netheril is a nation rebuilding, free of the Princes of Shade and the Shar cult, but still mistrusted by most other nations. Sembia continues to trade with them, but the relationship is much more equal now, and they need eachother because many nations distrust them both. Calimshan is still full of Genasi, and is the midst of a struggle over whether slavery will continue there, as Memnon is dead, and Calim is bound by a bargain of his own making to serve as a protecter of the nation, and advisor, and recieve tribute yearly. Another nation in a transitional, and thus much more interesting, state, rather than just retconned back to how it was before the ToT and SP. There's other stuff, and some changes that have made sense for my campaigns, like a 20 year time jump, and the creation of a multinational knighthood made up of people from various places, including Netheril, Cormyr, The Dales, Sembia, and accepting recruits from pretty much anywhere, dedicated to ensuring that the people of Toril will decide their own fate, not gods and chosen and dragon cults. Also, a great library on the Dragon Coast, connected to a large school set up by my group's characters from a 4e campaign. There's other stuff, but those are the biggest.

point is, I'm not a canon grognard or anything. I'm just saying, there's no canon reason for Dragonborn to be treated poorly, cause alarm, etc, in most places.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'd point out too that Waterdeep is a city of 130 000 people. Even at 1% "other" races, you're still looking at thousands of nonstandard race individuals living there. It's not like they're really rare. Or that it would be rare to see them. Not common of course, but probably something you see daily.

Doesn't that largely characterize a lot of places in FR?
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
So, I'm not sure how you can read all that and conclude anything other than that DB are widely known, probably respected and sought after as mercenaries (after all, even if that one passage refers to a specific group, there are a lot of DB merc npcs in published encounters), and have a habit of leaving their homeland to explore the Realms. I mean, some of those literally prove that by canon people (either in general, or in a given area) are used to seeing dragonborn and other foreigners.

To me it's all in your interpretation. In all of the Forgotten Realms game products published since the start of the 4th edition, where dragonborn first appeared as such, this is the extent of what's been said about them. Compared to the information on elves, dwarves, and especially humans. It's not the only interpretation, but I believe it's a valid one.

"Search for the Diamond Staff: One comment:
'Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Others: In general "these races aren’t from around here" People in the Dales are used to seeing outlandish foreigners wander through and so they rarely give such individuals notice.'"

That is an explicit statement that while the newer races don't live in the Dales in any big numbers, folk are used to seeing them, to the point where they don't even make much note of them.

This is the only explicit statement, it's a broad 'they'll accept anybody' so it's not dragonborn specific. It's also not entirely consistent with earlier published materials on the Dalelands.

Another explicit statement that they, until very, very recently, travelled far and wide, worked to build good relations with other nations, and gained a strong and widely known rep as good guys: "Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide:
'Some of Tymanther's dragonborn have spread across Faerun and gained reputations at competent, highly sought-after mercenaries.' and

'For a time, the dragonborn of Tymanther sought to integrate with their new world while maintaining their own traditions and culture. These efforts gave the nation and its people a reputation for being honorable and worthy of respect.

There are also explicit statements that DB in service to evil organizations is rare, and that list them as a common race. Those statements outweigh and completely negate weird considerations like how often they appear as NPCs of a given time in published adventures.

My focus is on the word 'some.' Competent and highly-sought after are contradictory. One would hardly praise somebody who is 'competent.' Among the published materials, it would appear that they were hired a lot by the Cult of the Dragon, which would raise suspicion in those that have experienced anything related to the Tyranny of Dragons storyline.

As for how stable their homeland was before the sundering (which is what I was talking about), it was stable enough for them to build large cities, and for their people to develop the habit of seeking fortunes elsewhere and then coming back, rather than emigrating elsewhere for better opportunities, which rarely involves going back to one's homeland. It may not make sense to you that they have a stable homeland, but they almost inarguably do. OR did. Before the proverbial hacksaw hit the proverbial bone.

Random side question: why is it weird for you that they aren't quadrupeds? Just the fact that dragons are? Did half dragons become quadrupedal? Draconians? IIRC, none of DnD's dragon people have even been, so why should the Dragonborn be?

Yes, they did have a stable homeland, but not in Toril. With their culture my sense is that their focus would be on stabilizing their new land. What sort of natural resources did they have on Abeir? Did they mine metals for example. If so, with those mines gone they would have needs that they didn't have the day before. Since I wasn't interested in exploring the nation, I haven't developed anything questioning these sorts of things. But I think they would be there.

The reason I mention something like being (at least partially) quadrupedal is that the vast majority, if not all playable races in D&D are essentially reskinned humans. But if this is a 'humanoid' race based on draconic heritage, why not retain more draconic features besides scales and a face? Half-dragons are the same, and even the draconians. Sure, they had tails and wings, although their design of being an entirely bipedal race with the same stance as a human negates the need for the tail, and probably impossible from a scientific perspective. Something that is both bipedal and quadrupedal, like the aliens in the movie Aliens would be an interesting departure.

But aside from physical characteristics, I think their entire culture would have evolved along different lines because their needs, biology, and physical characteristics are different. That's just an example as an alternative that could have been used. That still doesn't mean that I think they should be in the Realms, just that they would be more interesting.

"The elven/human connections are well documented in Realms supplements."

Sure. But not in any novels I've ever read, including a lot of the most popular ones, like the Drizzt and Elminster books, The Cleric Quintet, Paul Kemp's stuff, and lots of short stories by various people. SO, I very easily might be missing some, but it's just not something I think of as a big important part of FR. It's interesting history, but that's different.

I'm pretty sure some of Ed's books go into it a bit. There isn't any official group that determines what canon is or not, but most people I know (along with Candlekeep.com and the Forgotten Realms wiki, places officially published game materials above the novels, which often have contradictions or incorrect information. I'm OK with both, but lean toward the game stuff, and Ed's stuff first. The only reason why the history with the elves is important in this discussion is that people have stated that humans don't have any problem with them. And my point is that the history and their relationship is entirely different than that of a new race that suddenly appeared.

"how far into the Americas did Europeans travel in the first 100 years after Columbus? How many Europeans traveled to the Middle East (other than Crusaders) or China in the Dark Ages? Or Africa? India, perhaps?"

Not sure how the first is a relevant comparison? The DB aren't trying to expand colonies, take other people's lands, spread an ideology, etc. They want to trade, and make friends. ANd the setting books explicitly say that they made great efforts to do so. Therefor, they did, as long as we're talking about non houseruled/homebrewed DB.

This is a difference of interpretation again. You see 'great efforts' I see 'some' and 'a few' along with the fact that they are not mentioned to any great degree in most of the published materials. 5 pages in 27 supplements published since 2008. That's just not a major part of the campaign as far as I'm concerned.

So, again, this isn't an issue with dragonborn, as such. There's no inconsistency there, it just differs from your realms. WHich is fine, I don't use a lot of what I view as cheap retcons in the sundering. Netheril is still a viable, albeit reduced, nation. People still resent Sembia, so there is no "and they went back to their old trading habits" nonsense. Myth Drannor is still there, because Netheril's floating cities were grounded after the war with the Heartlands, and their magic turned to keeping the desert livable in spite of the old curse coming back. So now Netheril is a nation rebuilding, free of the Princes of Shade and the Shar cult, but still mistrusted by most other nations. Sembia continues to trade with them, but the relationship is much more equal now, and they need each other because many nations distrust them both. Calimshan is still full of Genasi, and is the midst of a struggle over whether slavery will continue there, as Memnon is dead, and Calim is bound by a bargain of his own making to serve as a protecter of the nation, and advisor, and recieve tribute yearly. Another nation in a transitional, and thus much more interesting, state, rather than just retconned back to how it was before the ToT and SP. There's other stuff, and some changes that have made sense for my campaigns, like a 20 year time jump, and the creation of a multinational knighthood made up of people from various places, including Netheril, Cormyr, The Dales, Sembia, and accepting recruits from pretty much anywhere, dedicated to ensuring that the people of Toril will decide their own fate, not gods and chosen and dragon cults. Also, a great library on the Dragon Coast, connected to a large school set up by my group's characters from a 4e campaign. There's other stuff, but those are the biggest.

I point is, I'm not a canon grognard or anything. I'm just saying, there's no canon reason for Dragonborn to be treated poorly, cause alarm, etc, in most places.

And this is exactly my point. Your Realms are based on what you determined makes sense to you. I agree that the retcons were somewhat cheap, but they were trying to put the Realms back in a state that was as close to what it was before without coming right out and saying none of it happened. The 4th edition changes were largely irrelevant to me, since that was the period I was running games the least since I was a kid. A large portion of the changes I just ignored, and so the retcons were essentially irrelevant. That's the way it should be for everybody (and is explicitly called out in the books).

The quotes I found give plenty of canon reasons why dragonborn might be treated poorly, just as you can decide to go the other direction. Other than some brief notes about what their society is like and what their possible motives would be, they are left almost entirely up to the DM to expand and develop. For example, in two places in the game materials it states that Chessenta is largely friendly and fascinated by the dragonborn, but the only novel that had anything to say on it says they are on the verge of war.

They were in a tough spot, because they had lost a lot of players (many if not most which seem to be coming back) to Pathfinder. While nobody else can publish Forgotten Realms specific material, it was clear that many of those that had played in it for a long time, along with some of their most successful authors, were not happy with the new direction. But there are plenty of other people who picked it up in the middle and were happy with the current state. So bringing it back to close to what was there allows those that were still playing 3rd edition Realms campaigns to jump forward to a familiar Realms and ignore the changes. By leaving slivers of things like Tymanther in play, it also allows those that want them in their campaigns to keep them. I think they did about as well as they could under the circumstances.

Your interpretations are entirely valid and work well for your campaign. They wouldn't work for me and my interpretation or the way my world works. Call me old school or stuck in the past, I'm OK with that.

Ilbranteloth
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I'd point out too that Waterdeep is a city of 130 000 people. Even at 1% "other" races, you're still looking at thousands of nonstandard race individuals living there. It's not like they're really rare. Or that it would be rare to see them. Not common of course, but probably something you see daily.

Doesn't that largely characterize a lot of places in FR?

Yes, but 1,300 people divided among several races, with some more represented by others, it's still entirely possible that you'll never run into one. For example, I'd guess lycanthropes and doppelgangers and vampires make up the majority of them with those three races alone.

There were something like 199 playable races in the 4th edition. Whether all of them are included in a Realms campaign is up for debate, but if there are less than 7 of a given race (if all of them are represented equally in that 1%), then I doubt you'd run into the majority of them in a city of 130,000.

Of course, I don't have most of those races in mine.

Ilbranteloth
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
To me it's all in your interpretation. In all of the Forgotten Realms game products published since the start of the 4th edition, where dragonborn first appeared as such, this is the extent of what's been said about them. Compared to the information on elves, dwarves, and especially humans. It's not the only interpretation, but I believe it's a valid one.



Your interpretations are entirely valid and work well for your campaign. They wouldn't work for me and my interpretation or the way my world works. Call me old school or stuck in the past, I'm OK with that.

Ilbranteloth


OK, but here's the thing. I don't see how "the gaming supplement explicitly says X, but the mention per book count suggests, to me, Y, so Y is probably true" is a valid interpretation.

If the book says they are common, leave their home a lot to explore, trade with other nations, that people in various places don't think twice about seeing them, etc, then that is the case in the official setting. Even if they're never mentioned again, it remains the case. How frequently supplements and novels mention them is completely irrelevant unless it's all we have to go on. But it isn't. We have direct statements in official material saying that DB are not an astonishing sight, they do leave their home frequently, and they do have a strongly positive reputation, and DB who serve evil organizations are incredibly rare.

Those statements trump extrapolated conclusions from mention frequency.
 

Hussar

Legend
The other issue I'm having [MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION] is that you are cherry picking history a bit too.

The FR is set in roughly 14th century levels of technology and social advancement, right? Somewhere thereabouts. You're claiming that people were rarely traveling, but, that's ignoring a lot of history. At that point in the real world, you have the Vikings setting up shop in Canada with a well established colony in Iceland already. You had Marco Polo already traversing the Silk road and meeting the Mongols. You could buy cinnamon in France that was grown in India. You had the Incas with a well established system of trade and roads, where you could travel from the coast to the capital, a distance of several hundred miles, in a matter of days. You had the Persians with contact with pretty much every society in Europe and Asia. There was considerable movement all over the world.

And, let's not forget, it's not like FR had a Dark Ages to slow things down.

I really don't think that FR is all that stay at home to be honest. There are numerous well established trade routes and a people who are not adverse to trade or moving.
 

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