Dragonborn in Faerun

[doctorbadwolf]

The other issue I'm having [MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION] is that you are cherry picking history a bit too.

The FR is set in roughly 14th century levels of technology and social advancement, right? Somewhere thereabouts. You're claiming that people were rarely traveling, but, that's ignoring a lot of history. At that point in the real world, you have the Vikings setting up shop in Canada with a well established colony in Iceland already. You had Marco Polo already traversing the Silk road and meeting the Mongols. You could buy cinnamon in France that was grown in India. You had the Incas with a well established system of trade and roads, where you could travel from the coast to the capital, a distance of several hundred miles, in a matter of days. You had the Persians with contact with pretty much every society in Europe and Asia. There was considerable movement all over the world.

And, let's not forget, it's not like FR had a Dark Ages to slow things down.

I really don't think that FR is all that stay at home to be honest. There are numerous well established trade routes and a people who are not adverse to trade or moving.

This. Exactly this.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Regarding Chessenta and Tymanther, when the game supplements were written, yes, they were on good terms. Since then, the novels happened. The mercenary group Brotherhood of the Gryphon, rescued Tchazzar from the Abyss. It is Tchazzar who was driving Chessenta towards war with Tymanther. The Brotherhood put a stop to that by killing Tchazzar.

Not sure why there would be dragonborn working with the Cult of the Dragon if they are from Tymanther. I suppose they could be deviants, like that false priestess of Bahamut in one of the Brotherhood novels that was really a priestess of Tiamat. I would like to think maybe Tymanther has infiltrated the cult to keep an eye on them and stop them. Or maybe they're Abeiran slave dragonborn from Returned Abeir.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Probably not every dragonborn is anti dragon. I'd say many work with dragons and are rewarded for doing so, some may even venerate dragons. It isn't just humans who vary in outlook.

A church of Bahamut was set up in Tymanther because some of them decided to worship him.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

OK, but here's the thing. I don't see how "the gaming supplement explicitly says X, but the mention per book count suggests, to me, Y, so Y is probably true" is a valid interpretation.

If the book says they are common, leave their home a lot to explore, trade with other nations, that people in various places don't think twice about seeing them, etc, then that is the case in the official setting. Even if they're never mentioned again, it remains the case. How frequently supplements and novels mention them is completely irrelevant unless it's all we have to go on. But it isn't. We have direct statements in official material saying that DB are not an astonishing sight, they do leave their home frequently, and they do have a strongly positive reputation, and DB who serve evil organizations are incredibly rare.

Those statements trump extrapolated conclusions from mention frequency.

Except the books never explicitly says they are common.

'They sometimes send small groups of elite warriors to track down known lairs of powerful dragons.'

--->The key word for me is sometimes, and also the fact that they are tracking down dragon lairs, not involving themselves in societies.

'Despite Tymanther's desire for friendly relations with others, it has one few true allies.'

'Unfortunately for them, the strangeness of their customs and their uncertain origins casts many suspicions on the dragonborn and their motives, making establishing long-lasting alliances a challenge. '

'For a time, the dragonborn of Tymanther sought to integrate with their new world while maintaining their own traditions and culture. These efforts gave the nation and its people a reputation for being honorable and worthy of respect... the remaining dragonborn in Faerun now find they must work even harder and with fewer resources to find their place among the people the world.'

'...everyone stares at her because of her white dragon heritage.'

--->All statements indicating that dragonborn have difficulty fitting in with societies other than their own.

'Dragonborn who achieve fame abroad are celebrates as state heroes back in Tymanther. The dragonborn see these few as emissaries of their race, proving to the wide continent of Faerun that they have nothing to fear from dragonborn.'

'Some of Tymanther's dragonborn have spread across Faerun and gained reputations at competent, highly sought-after mercenaries.'

--->The first doesn't indicate how many, the second says 'some.' Not many, not they are common, just some.

As for the Dalelands comment from an adventure:
'Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Others: In general "these races aren’t from around here" People in the Dales are used to seeing outlandish foreigners wander through and so they rarely give such individuals notice.'

This is just an indication that people in a specific location feel this way. Not the continent as a whole. This is in regards to a populace that has been through a lot, and that include among their populace some of the most famous and powerful adventurers in recent history. Described as rustic and xenophobic, but also recognize that skilled adventurers are their first line of defense.

It's also directly contradicted by the 'everyone stares at her' and 'the strangeness of their customs' comments noted earlier.

So perhaps dragonborn would fit best there.

In addition, the majority of mentions or published NPCs are tied to the Cult of the Dragon, which I would consider an evil organization.

I think that the number of times a race appears in a published sourcebook or adventure has some impact if the criteria is whether they are common or not. In those same books there are a great many more humans and elves described especially. One can easily surmise that if there are a lot more humans and elves identified and detailed, that there are more humans and elves.

More importantly, the vague and/or contradictory statements, combined with their low frequency leaves the interpretation to the DM and what they decide works in their campaign. At best, there are as many statements indicating they have difficulty in society as there are that they don't. They are sometimes sought after as mercenaries, but that could be in part because of their appearance, and doesn't indicate that they fit well into society. Just that they are recognized for their combat prowess, and perhaps loyalty.

So I'm not extrapolating conclusions, the conclusion that they are not common is based on what was written, with the frequency, or lack thereof, supporting it. That's not to say that it's not possible to come to another conclusion. It's not 'wrong' that you feel otherwise. It's just that the 'evidence' is presented in such a way that multiple directions are reasonable and possible.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Regarding Chessenta and Tymanther, when the game supplements were written, yes, they were on good terms. Since then, the novels happened. The mercenary group Brotherhood of the Gryphon, rescued Tchazzar from the Abyss. It is Tchazzar who was driving Chessenta towards war with Tymanther. The Brotherhood put a stop to that by killing Tchazzar.

Not sure why there would be dragonborn working with the Cult of the Dragon if they are from Tymanther. I suppose they could be deviants, like that false priestess of Bahamut in one of the Brotherhood novels that was really a priestess of Tiamat. I would like to think maybe Tymanther has infiltrated the cult to keep an eye on them and stop them. Or maybe they're Abeiran slave dragonborn from Returned Abeir.

Well, I think that's largely a part of poor or partial design. The whole of Tymanther is basically described in less than two pages. About half of that is a description of the physical layout of one citidel-city. Their culture and beliefs are described in a few paragraphs, and they are very one-dimensional. They designed it with the idea that this would be a 'noble and honorable race' but the world isn't like that. A race doesn't determine your perspective and values. Society does.

Beyond that, I would be surprised that a race that overthrew the bonds of slavery would develop such and organized and regimented society. I think individual freedoms would be paramount.

Outside of any sort of story reason, they were convenient and 'logical' members, provided you didn't worry about the published concept. I don't think the designers put a whole lot of thought into the backstory of their use and whether it contradicted what little has been written about Tymanther.

If you're asking how to reconcile it, I think it's pretty simple. If a portion of your country suddenly found itself dropped in a new world, everything changes. Not all clans or individuals would agree with the choices and directions made by their leaders in the best of times, much less a huge change such as this. They aren't 'deviants' but rather individuals who feel that changing or difficult times require a different approach. That the individual (who may have lost most of their clan or family) must stand up and fend for themselves. Dragons, and the power of dragons, they understand. The politics of the rest of the new world, not so much.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Ilbranteloth]

The other issue I'm having [MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION] is that you are cherry picking history a bit too.

The FR is set in roughly 14th century levels of technology and social advancement, right? Somewhere thereabouts. You're claiming that people were rarely traveling, but, that's ignoring a lot of history. At that point in the real world, you have the Vikings setting up shop in Canada with a well established colony in Iceland already. You had Marco Polo already traversing the Silk road and meeting the Mongols. You could buy cinnamon in France that was grown in India. You had the Incas with a well established system of trade and roads, where you could travel from the coast to the capital, a distance of several hundred miles, in a matter of days. You had the Persians with contact with pretty much every society in Europe and Asia. There was considerable movement all over the world.

And, let's not forget, it's not like FR had a Dark Ages to slow things down.

I really don't think that FR is all that stay at home to be honest. There are numerous well established trade routes and a people who are not adverse to trade or moving.

So, the vikings were raiding and colonizing.

Marco Polo was an individual (obviously with a group of people for support), not the norm at the time.

The Incas would compare well with Cormyr, a well established and patrolled land with a good infrastructure.

And in the rest of the Realms I think it's the same - in Cormyr or Elturgard, where you have a well-patrolled land with good roads between cities, sure, travel is common and relatively safe. Outside of those few areas, not so much.

Trade, via the sea or silk road, was established but long and dangerous, primarily due to weather. They didn't have to contend with monsters and evil wizards. Bandits, pirates, and the like seem to be more prevalent in the Realms. Spices, silk, and other exotic imports are expensive as a result.

Published caravan travel times puts the trip from Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate at 32 days. That's a month of travel in a world where there are monsters and magic. Most travel would be between a farm, village or hamlet to the nearest major settlement. This map of the region of Daggerford is a perfect example:

http://mikeschley.zenfolio.com/img/s7/v153/p666144112-3.jpg

The Realms is a very different place with dangers that never existed in our world. So travel outside of a caravan is rare. Having said that, even in our world it took most people a long time. Near where I live, several towns originated as a single town, as a single parish. Several of the towns split off when the population was high enough, because the trip on Sunday to and from church took nearly the entire day - a 10-12 mile walk that was around 3+ hours each way depending on weather. Due to fear from native americans and large game like bears, plus companionship, they traveled as a group. This was in the 1600 to 1700s.

Ilbranteloth

 

[KahlessNestor]

The reason they are highly regimented is because they had to constantly defend their home from dragons. They developed a military society. Much like Israel. Everyone serves their time.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

The reason they are highly regimented is because they had to constantly defend their home from dragons. They developed a military society. Much like Israel. Everyone serves their time.

Well, the Dalelands are very unregimented, but everybody is required to defend when needed. Daggerford requires every person to serve 2 years, if I recall, in the guard, and receive training for it.

So it doesn't necessarily follow that the rest of society must be as regimented as their militia or army. Particularly, I would think, if they are fending off their former slavers.

Ilbranteloth

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Except the books never explicitly says they are common.



So I'm not extrapolating conclusions, the conclusion that they are not common is based on what was written, with the frequency, or lack thereof, supporting it. That's not to say that it's not possible to come to another conclusion. It's not 'wrong' that you feel otherwise. It's just that the 'evidence' is presented in such a way that multiple directions are reasonable and possible.

Ilbranteloth

Since we disagree on whether or not frequency of mention is indicative of anything inside the game world, we're not going to see eye to eye on this. IMO, the books make it very clear with actual statements that Dragonborn are common, have a good reputation, and work with evil orgs only extremely rarely. TO me, the idea that page count matters in this discussion is a huge reach, at the least.

So it doesn't necessarily follow that the rest of society must be as regimented as their militia or army. Particularly, I would think, if they are fending off their former slavers.

Ilbranteloth

"Must" isn't relevant. They aren't that way because it's the only way to respond to such a circumstance, but because it's the way they specifically responded to it, and it's a perfectly reasonable way in which to respond. As for being former slaves, that experience also doesn't have a "must" in how people react to being free of it. Libertarian individualism may make sense to you, but to others the opposite is more sensible, or something in between.


Oh, and about the real world bits in that other post. Maco Polo wasn't strange for having travelled afar. The VIkings were doing a lot more than raiding and colonizing. For the entire viking age, they did a lot more trading and working as mercenaries who were highly sought after because they didn't break their oaths, once given, came with their own really good gear, and fought with noteworthy ferocity. But they travelled so widely that Asian silks and rings engraved with Arabic are among the things found in Viking grave sites. And most of their travel was trade and exploration.
The point is, travel wasn't as uncommon as most people think during that time.

And while FR has more dangers, it also has more people who know how to defend against those dangers. And it's pretty well established that people travel further than the next village quite a bit. Maybe it wasn't back in the early days of FR, but that only matters in games like yours that take place then. For the rest of us, the world is as it's been established since then, more or less. And that includes travel that's at least as normal as it was in 14th century europe, but probably more so.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Since we disagree on whether or not frequency of mention is indicative of anything inside the game world, we're not going to see eye to eye on this. IMO, the books make it very clear with actual statements that Dragonborn are common, have a good reputation, and work with evil orgs only extremely rarely.

Page count debate aside, I provided every quote about dragonborn regarding how many and how far they have traveled, and to me nothing actually printed makes it clear to me that they are common. That's where we differ.

Ilbranteloth