Dragonborn in Faerun

[KahlessNestor]

Well, you have Mehen running around and doing heroic things, and some dragonborn in the famous Brotherhood of the Gryphon too doing things like killing an ex-god like Tchazzar. Considering it didn't take Drizzt's reputation long to spread enough that Jarlaxle could claim to be him somewhere out in the sticks and get free drinks in a tavern, I think the bard rumor and gossip mill works pretty well.

 

[Hussar]

I think most people think of gossip and news as traveling far to fast, and more importantly, intact. News travels primarily with slow moving caravans, bards and minstrels, and adventuring parties, and based on gossip at the origin. The farther from the source, the more mouths it has passed through. News of this nature is notoriously slow and unreliable for more than a good tale, exaggerated by the bards and entertainers, and often met with disbelief by those who hear it. 'Really, dragon-men, what a great tale!'

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?474645-Dragonborn-in-Faerun/page6#ixzz3wEe1LMNX

See, this here is something I think shows a rather large divide in how people approach settings.

This is very much the "fantasy Middle Ages" model where Faerun is more or less Middle Ages Europe with some fantasy layered on top. People hear stories and treat them like stories because they haven't seen the "fantastic" that often and will disbelieve stuff because of that.

OTOH, there are those who look at Forgotten Realms as a setting where the fantastic happens every other day. Spells and magic are common, multiple races mix together on a regular basis. The Cantina scene from Star Wars is a regular occurrence in this interpretation.

So, it really comes down to how you interpret the setting. If it's the latter interpretation, then Dragonborn aren't going to do much more than raise a couple of eyebrows. If it's the former, then it becomes a much bigger issue.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

See, this here is something I think shows a rather large divide in how people approach settings.

This is very much the "fantasy Middle Ages" model where Faerun is more or less Middle Ages Europe with some fantasy layered on top. People hear stories and treat them like stories because they haven't seen the "fantastic" that often and will disbelieve stuff because of that.

OTOH, there are those who look at Forgotten Realms as a setting where the fantastic happens every other day. Spells and magic are common, multiple races mix together on a regular basis. The Cantina scene from Star Wars is a regular occurrence in this interpretation.

So, it really comes down to how you interpret the setting. If it's the latter interpretation, then Dragonborn aren't going to do much more than raise a couple of eyebrows. If it's the former, then it becomes a much bigger issue.

Exactly.

I don't remember which thread I quoted, but in Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms he says that while magic is everywhere, the average person has never felt magic cast upon them. I take that to mean not even healing magic. While the Realms is certainly more magical than Middle Earth, I think the effects of magic and the fantastical encroach upon the average small village about as much as it does in Tolkien's world. The cities are a whole different place.

I see the nature of the resident of a small village that finds themselves in the life of an adventurer (like Shandril in Spellfire) to find themselves in an unusual world where they have to learn fast, that magic is amazing, and the world outside of any sort of civilization is dangerous. I like to compare that to the same sense of wonder that a first-time player of D&D experiences.

As far as things like Jarlaxle and Drizzt, I see those stories as exactly that, tales that have grown in the telling. That's why Drizzt typically slays most foes with a single stroke, etc. That also turns the novels into game tools. If the players want to read them it's no problem. The events may or may not have happened, or maybe not quite in the way they thought. That was particularly important back in the early '90's when the novels were being released at a rapid pace and adding new Realmslore (of varying quality) on what seemed like a monthly basis.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Well, you have Mehen running around and doing heroic things, and some dragonborn in the famous Brotherhood of the Gryphon too doing things like killing an ex-god like Tchazzar. Considering it didn't take Drizzt's reputation long to spread enough that Jarlaxle could claim to be him somewhere out in the sticks and get free drinks in a tavern, I think the bard rumor and gossip mill works pretty well.

Except in my campaign, the PCs took on Tchazzar in the '90's. Which presents a bit of a problem with incorporating that new story line...

Ilbranteloth

 

[Ilbranteloth]

In fact, looking back at the novel list, that campaign lasted from 1993 until 1998, and 1358 to 1368 in game years, two houses, at least 10 different players with a core of about 4-5 throughout. Additional campaigns continued with a smaller group of the same core players until just into the start of 4th edition.

Fortunately, by the time the 100-year jump in the 4th edition occurred I was in a hiatus, and the players from that group has long since moved away. Many of the characters (particularly the demi-humans) remain, and my daughter is playing a descendent of one of my NPC (and occasionally a PC) characters.

Perhaps that explains a bit better why I feel a bit more strongly about what changes I don't incorporate into my campaign.

Ilbranteloth

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Except in my campaign, the PCs took on Tchazzar in the '90's. Which presents a bit of a problem with incorporating that new story line...

Ilbranteloth

Obviously he was only mostly dead.

Deity-level figures, particularly in FR, are notorious for treating death like a revolving door. Unless they're the deity of magic, in which case dying is permanent but someone else will inherit the mantle.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Obviously he was only mostly dead.

Deity-level figures, particularly in FR, are notorious for treating death like a revolving door. Unless they're the deity of magic, in which case dying is permanent but someone else will inherit the mantle.

Oh, yes, although he wasn't exactly dead, but trapped in a gem. But it's not just the state of Tchazzar himself, but all of the events surrounding Tchazzar that followed in later published materials that would be different. I wasn't done with the story (in fact, I'm still not, but that group has moved on, and I'm still deciding how much of WotC's material will affect that potential story and where I want to go with it).

One of the really fun things for me is that I have 100+ years of my own game history, written by almost 30 real years with our own PCs and NPCs populating the land and impacting the history, which means my trajectory isn't quite the same. For those that do continue to pop into the campaign every now and then, they have actual ties to the world, with ancestors, allies, and enemies that they already know about.

At the time I picked a little known NPC of great power in a region that had little published material to interfere. I had a lot of things going on in Sembia as well, because the original campaign set designated it as 'home campaign' territory, not to be addressed in future published material so you wouldn't have to worry about 'canon' interfering with your campaign.

Oops.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Obviously he was only mostly dead.

Deity-level figures, particularly in FR, are notorious for treating death like a revolving door. Unless they're the deity of magic, in which case dying is permanent but someone else will inherit the mantle.

By the way, my group totally missed a Princess Bride reference I dropped in recently... (he could track a falcon on a cloudy day).

Ilbranteloth

 

[EzekielRaiden]

By the way, my group totally missed a Princess Bride reference I dropped in recently... (he could track a falcon on a cloudy day).

Ilbranteloth

I'll be honest, that one probably would have snuck past me, too. Probably because it's Buttercup mentioning one of Humperdinck's (few) virtues. And also happens just a couple lines before The Man In Black threatens to hurt her for "lying."

----

I've got a question for the thread in general (which you, Ilbranteloth, are of course free to answer as well):

Is part of the problem with dragonborn the fact that they are official?

Sometimes, I get the feeling that there is a deep antipathy, with certain segments of the gaming population, for "novelty" in the...for lack of a better term, "narrative" content of D&D. Novel mechanical ideas aren't necessarily seen as good or bad (e.g. 5e's "universal" proficiency score, or 4e's one-and-done +5 "training" value), and it seems like many DMs from all styles of play are open to cool player suggestions if presented in the right way. But for some reason, dragonborn (even more than tieflings or drow) seem to really stick in peoples' craw. The idea of playing something draconic isn't weird in the global sense--it's well known, by now, that Gygax allowed people to play (young) dragons and even balrogs at his table, as long as they grew into their power in some way, rather than just starting off awesome. And while I've seen (what I consider) far too many DMs who open conversations about their campaigns with lengthy, detailed, and occasionally vitriolic lists of all the things they'll never ever let you play in their games, I still hold out hope that most DMs are cool enough to listen when the player has a cool idea they'd like to bring to life.

So...yeah, I guess my question is (whether specific to Faerun or not): Is the fact that dragonborn are in the book when you didn't "ask" for or "want" them there what really makes them a "problem"? Or is it more fundamental than that--that people just can't accept lizards-with-epic-halitosis as an option thematically "equivalent to" a dwarf or even a half-orc (since the 4e mechanics were well-balanced and the 5e ones are, if anything, on the weak side)?

 

[gyor]

Except in my campaign, the PCs took on Tchazzar in the '90's. Which presents a bit of a problem with incorporating that new story line...

Ilbranteloth

Well Tchazzar is back ruling a Chessenta city, Erbros I think according to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, in a new incarnation and this isn't the first time this bastard come back from the dead, so just call the one you killed in the 90’s another incarnation.

Seriously dude's got more lives then a cat or Mystra.