Dragonborn in Faerun

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
Sure, although first and second edition had level limits for demi-humans because the game really was geared towards human characters.

The first paragraph is definitely about powerful monsters as characters and concerned with balance, but I think it is a mistake to write off the rest of the section. There are some important ideas in there: Namely that the players are human and can identifiy most closely with human characters. Every step away from humanity is a step towards the player being unable to play it believably, nevermind imagining themselves as the creature in question.

I mean, if we're going down this route it immediately falls flat on Elves, as most people cannot realistically play an ancient race that lives so long it has seen entire empires live and die.

Realistically speaking, elves should view humans as mayflies or the like, because that's about how long their lives are compared to them. In the life of a single elf we advanced 500 years of history. Elves and humans, realistically speaking, shouldn't be able to even vaguely relate to each other because of things like this, their timespans are just so different. Psychologically they'd just be too different.

When you throw all that away then yeah, sure, I have no problem with people hanging around with a dragon looking guy and a demon

Incidentally my most powerful for the sake of being powerful character is an elf mage, meanwhile my most unique and modest character is the fire genasi
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Sure. Honestly, my objections to what you're saying kinda went awy the more I realized your concern is with your specific campaign, rather than FR as a published official setting and how anyone else runs a game, etc.

For a given campaign like that, I would just present it to new players as a homebrew campaign based on the earliest FR info, before a lot of new stuff existed, and so some of the newer stuff might be hard to fit into the campaign. That's no less a reasonable way to run things than making a homebrew campaign that only has Gnomes, Goliaths, Minotaurs and Drow, and is based strongly on the Mediterranean, Byzantines and Abbasid Caliphate, and thus doesn't allow any elf characters.

I still use most of the published material, and one of the reasons I love running in the Realms is that it provides a shared environment that other players can already 'know.' Since the dragonborn are literally relegated to their own sections in the sourcebooks and, as far as I know, only featured in one series of novels, if your introduction to the Realms was via novels other than Erin M Evans, you wouldn't even know they were there.

But yes, I'm talking about my home campaign, not Realms 'canon' which is a tough target in itself. To each their own.

I am admittedly out of the loop on the novels, having skimmed through them but not sat down to read them yet. But are they even mentioned in the Sundering series of novels? Or any Salvatore or Greenwood novel?

Also, I'm not sure what's wrong with wanting to play an actual dragon, so long as it's a young one, and low level. It would have been easier to build in 4e, probably, but I'm sure a clever DM could work something up to allow someone to play a young dragon in 5e that would balance just fine, gaining power and size, and the ability to polymorph, as it levels.

Oh, yes. As I said, I'm not against the players having powerful characters. The 'dragonborn' in this current campaign looked a lot like an elf, with a slightly different appearance. Looked elvish, but exotic. As long as he could remember, he wore this anklet, that grew along with him and he couldn't remove. They didn't stick with the game long enough, so the on-stage quest didn't lead to fruition, but he's still an NPC that is helping rebuild a keep that they inherited. During that process (along with werebear that already lived in the ruins, he did later discover what the anklet was and how to remove it.

That's when he found out he was not a half-steel dragon as he thought. He was a very young (20ish) steel dragon. The player never knew that, and I was particularly looking forward to the point when they discovered that in game. I love the idea of powerful secrets and such, and have had all sorts of 'overpowered' players like incantatrixes, and a spellfire user.

Ilbranteloth
 


KahlessNestor

Adventurer
Not in a Salvatore novel that I know of (though not caught up there), but he did a lot with tieflings. Outside of Evans, Richard M. Biers' Brotherhood of the Gryphon series (not read yet) has done stuff in that area with dragonborn, including working for amd then killing Tchazzar when he was going to conquer Tymanther.
 

MG.0

First Post
P3&4: The first half is a non-sequitur about the difficulty of making games with *no* humans. But showing that humans should be "featured" does not show they should be central and exclusive. He then argues that the DMs' jobs are so fantastically difficult that they'd need to be be Renaissance-level geniuses if we ask for more than humans, which is hyperbole of the worst sort. We're now surrounded by settings (whether tabletop or videogame) which feature distinctly non-human races in a believable fashion. That you can cite the Mos Eisley cantina at all--for or against--proves it's possible, even for a newbie director. Hell, Star Trek had a staff of people whose specific job was to come up with language symbols, and to flesh out things like the Klingon culture. So I think we can declare these, instead of irrelevant, factually disproven.
You certainly seem to dislike Gygax's approach to D&D. I'm not saying everything he wrote is gospel or anything like that, but there are valid points in there. The whole section rambles a bit and so I tend to read it as a disconnected stream of conciousness thing, which is probably how it was written. I'll just focus on this one part, because I don't have much time at the moment. The third paragraph is about the importance of humanity as an anchor to the otherwise bizarre world of D&D, and also about the importance of making a campaign world a living breathing whole - indeed a monumental task without aid. In the fourth he's not saying that it's difficult to DM a world with more than humans, he's saying it's difficult to create a believable campaign world where humans don't play a central role or don't exist. The fact that Star Trek has created an (arguably) semi-believable culture for Klingons actually reinforces this, as it wasn't done by a single overworked DM in his spare time, but as you said, by teams of people hired to do just that, and still humanity plays the central role. Star Wars cantina isn't a good example either, as there is no believable culture there - just a throwaway scene in a movie. Unless you plan on lampshading culture issues, making everyone just humans in a funny suit anyway, it is a tremendous amount of work for a DM to undertake without aid from literature. Notice he doesn't preclude the possibility of creating such a world, just that it would be difficult, which indeed it is. His last sentence does cynically disbelieve such a world rival those of literary geniuses, and here I disagree. Not everyone is capable of creating a complicated believable world, but I don't think it as rare as Gygax seems to think. Again, I don't agree with every point he makes, but I do agree with:
  • Players wanting to play powerful monsters typically see it as a way to get attention or dominate the game. This is pretty much borne out in my experience.
  • Creating an entire campaign world populated with believable cultures is incredibly hard without aid. Doubly so for worlds not centered on humans.
  • Literature is a big help in creating believable worlds.
  • The further a character is from human, the harder it is to identify with and integrate into a world.
  • Don't refuse monsters as characters, but place realistic (for your campaign) restrictions on them. If monster-like characters are not lampshaded, then most players will gravitate back to playing something that fits in better.
An example for the last item: If everytime your Xorn walks into weapon shop, the proprietor freaks out, it gets old. Ignoring that because it gets boring does a disservice to the integrity of the campaign world overall unless you make Xorn's walking into shops a normal thing in your world. Making a campaign world with believable Xorn nations and culture mixing with that of humans is a lot of work, due to the lack of any existing source material.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
You certainly seem to dislike Gygax's approach to D&D. I'm not saying everything he wrote is gospel or anything like that, but there are valid points in there.

Honestly, it's more the rhetoric than the approach itself. The man definitely understood design. But his written opinions come across...far worse, and far less friendly, than his spoken ones. I'm also not super big on the "player skill is the end-all be-all of the game." I think it matters, albeit more as informed choices and learning from results, but I'm also in it to hear an awesome story.

The third paragraph is about the importance of humanity as an anchor to the otherwise bizarre world of D&D...

And had he stopped there, he would've had my full agreement. We need touchstones. They help us find the familiar in the strange--and, in the best cases, the strange in the familiar.

and also about the importance of making a campaign world a living breathing whole - indeed a monumental task without aid. In the fourth he's not saying that it's difficult to DM a world with more than humans, he's saying it's difficult to create a believable campaign world where humans don't play a central role or don't exist.

It's hard for me to see it as such a "monumental" task when I engage in it as an idle pastime. I'm a clever guy, but I am not so puffed up to think that I am somehow specially imaginative! And again, I see a huge and fundamentally important distinction between the two things you describe here: a world where humans don't play a central role vs. a world where humans don't exist. Arguments about the difficulty of making, and accepting, the latter cannot necessarily be used to justify the former! There's also a third, even grander state, which Gygax is stridently arguing for: humans not just in *a* central role, but *the* central role, with all other species as mere footnotes to their radiant, indeed solar glory. The fact that it's hard to find your way in a world with nothing "human"--which I don't dispute--doesn't actually support the idea that humans MUST be the special, chosen/destined people that always lead and always dominate.

The fact that Star Trek has created an (arguably) semi-believable culture for Klingons actually reinforces this, as it wasn't done by a single overworked DM in his spare time, but as you said, by teams of people hired to do just that, and still humanity plays the central role.

Well, other than having a separate costume designer, I'm 99% sure Klingon culture--language, rituals, etc.--can all be traced to one guy (Marc Okrand). And even if it were a team, so what? It just shows that "believable" cultures CAN be done, in fairly short order, by a small staff of people. Sometimes repeatedly (Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Bajorans, Romulans, Cardassians, the Founders). Will it take longer, and be more piecemeal, if done by a single person? Sure--but at the same time, they have the most fantastic special-effects engine ever created to ease their burden (that is, their players' imaginations). Hell, Tolkien did it with not just one culture, but half a dozen (some drawing heavily on real cultures, some fairly minimally, e.g. the Vanyar and Noldor).

Notice he doesn't preclude the possibility of creating such a world, just that it would be difficult, which indeed it is. His last sentence does cynically disbelieve such a world rival those of literary geniuses, and here I disagree. Not everyone is capable of creating a complicated believable world, but I don't think it as rare as Gygax seems to think.

See, I think he is using that example to show that it is impossible for most, if not all, DMs. Sure, he's allowing that it might be theoretically possible, but it's clear that his argument is "you're not going to actually accomplish this." But there absolutely are such worlds--and I think Gygax has misinterpreted why they happen. Humans are frequently central for the same reasons that males are far more commonly the leading role in books and films: because we humans (I would argue lazily) rely on stereotype and convenient cultural biases. But at least for gender or ethnicity or sexuality, there actually are people to challenge us on these acts of convenience. There ain't a Lorax to speak for the trees aliens.

Again, I don't agree with every point he makes, but I do agree with:
  • Players wanting to play powerful monsters typically see it as a way to get attention or dominate the game. This is pretty much born out in my experience.
  • Creating an entire campaign world populated with believable cultures is incredibly hard without aid. Doubly so for worlds not centered on humans.
  • Literature is a big help in creating believable worlds.
  • The further a character is from human, the harder it is to identify with and integrate into a world.
  • Don't refuse monsters as characters, but place realistic (for your campaign) restrictions on them. If monster-like characters are not lampshaded, then most players will gravitate back to playing something that fits in better.

Okay, well, first point doesn't apply to dragonborn, tieflings, or the vast majority of other "non-human" races. They're not "powerful monsters." They're no more different from humans than elves are.* I disagree about the "doubly so for worlds not centered on humans." Worlds can feature humans, and humans can be a common occurrence, without them being the "center" of the campaign/story. Consider, for example, World of Warcraft: arguably, the two most important races are not human--they're (Night) elves and orcs! (They certainly get better writing most of the time...) And sure, literature helps--good DMs borrow, great DMs steal, to "borrow" from Mr. Wilde--I see that, too, as kind of a platitude, since it's effectively impossible to work without being inspired by stuff you already know (and, particularly, stuff you like).

I can identify just fine with non-human characters. It's a matter of making them understandable, even if they aren't like us. The difference between cognitive and emotive understanding. I also question that last assertion: I don't think either of us has any idea what "most" players, who decide to try a balanced "monster-like" character, will want to do after experiencing the effect of being made Other.

An example for the last item: If everytime your Xorn walks into weapon shop, the proprietor freaks out, it gets old. Ignoring that because it gets boring does a disservice to the integrity of the campaign world overall unless you make Xorn's walking into shops a normal thing in your world. Making a campaign world with believable Xorn nations and culture mixing with that of humans is a lot of work, due to the lack of any existing source material.

Eh. I don't think it's as much work as you're thinking it is. It does require effort and thought, but I came up with at least a delaying tactic (the "random race reaction table") with just a few minutes' thought.

*And, in 5e, dragonborn are IMO decidedly less different, mechanically!
 

MG.0

First Post
Eh. I don't think it's as much work as you're thinking it is. It does require effort and thought, but I came up with at least a delaying tactic (the "random race reaction table") with just a few minutes' thought.

That's all well and good, but eventually you need to come up with something more substantive and then it gets weird. What would Xorn culture be like? They don't wear clothes. They don't even eat oragnic material. Would they even have buildings? Would they have a concept of currency, and what form would it take? Xorn trading in gold would be like humans trading in baked chickens. How would they be accepted into human communities when their idea of a restaurant or alehouse is the local blacksmith's shop? Can you answer these questions and the inevitable thousand or so follow-ups in a consistent manner? Sure, but it's hard. The further you get from human the harder it gets because less and less of our own shared history and experience remains useful and the less believable and identifiable the end result tends to be.

Of course Dragonborn are nowhere near this extreme, but they are further out than elves, dwarves and the like which are at least distinctly mammalian. Like I said, I include them because some of my players like them, but I personally don't care for them.

In my opinion Tieflings are probably even worse. I find it hard to conceive of a human culture that would have no problem with a bunch of quite obviously demonically descended beings strolling around. It also begs the question of how common this type of interbreeding is. I would think Tieflings would inspire hatred and revulsion almost universally among human cultures, making them exponentially more difficult to integrate than even Dragonborn are.

Edit: ...and the word Tiefling just plain bugs the crap out me. The first time I heard it I thought "What is that, a race of pixies or brownies or something?" It sounds so incredibly mismatched. Do not like.
 
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n00b f00

First Post
I also don't like the Tiefling name. I just view their integration as being similar to a number of real life groups who try to fit in various ways but never quite fully getting along. Either they're sorta on the fringes of society and untrusted but usually not actively hostile, maybe in a ghetto. Or they take lucrative but taboo professions, granting them quite a bit of social mobility and wealth, leading to more resentment but making them non trivial in local politics. Or some combination, they're poor people, criminals, cultists, vagabonds, adventurers, and merchants. Your average human doesn't like them, but if it was the right one, maybe his daughter marrying up wouldn't be the worst possible thing in the world.

Though I suppose it depends on the setting.
 

Hussar

Legend
I both agree and disagree with [MENTION=6799436]MG.0[/MENTION]. He makes, IMO, a very good point about lamp shading Rare X characters. Even @Ezekial Raiden's example reaction table, while a very cool idea, I imagine would last about 3 times and then quietly go away. Are we now going to RP out every single shopping trip? Every single NPC interaction? No. We don't do that for the other PC's, why would we bother doing it for this Rare character. So, after two or three times, it quietly falls to the floor, never to be mentioned again.

Never minding the times when such a thing completely derails the game. The players are in a tense investigation, trying to find the cultists of Bhaal before they do their dastardly deed. They are meeting a Zhentarim agent in a dark, seedy tavern and it's going to be a very cool scene with negotiations and blackmail and whatnot for the entire group. The group walks into the bar, the DM rolls, and the bartender calls out, "Hey, we don't serve there kind in here, get that out of here!!"

So, now what? Do we bench one player for the remainder of the scene just because of his character? Do we scrap the entire scene? IME, what actually happens is that the DM conveniently "forgets" the existence of the Rare Character for the scene and plays things out. It gets lampshaded. Otherwise, it's spotlight stealing, even if the player isn't intending it to be and just too much of a PITA.

------

OTOH, I disagree with [MENTION=6799436]MG.0[/MENTION] in this specific case about Dragonborn. No, they really aren't any different than the immortal (at least from a human POV) faeries wandering around, or the magical dwarves who skulk deep underground, getting up to who knows what. Mammalian? Really? How do you know dwarven parents don't carve their young from rock and breathe life into them? Have you ever seen dwarves children? Maybe there aren't any - dwarves are just "born" as full adults. This is a magical world with active gods. Just because something happens to share your morphology doesn't really mean a whole lot.

Dragonborn, while perhaps a bit physically intimidating, are closer to humans.
 

MG.0

First Post
No, they really aren't any different than the immortal (at least from a human POV) faeries wandering around, or the magical dwarves who skulk deep underground, getting up to who knows what. Mammalian? Really? How do you know dwarven parents don't carve their young from rock and breathe life into them? Have you ever seen dwarves children? Maybe there aren't any - dwarves are just "born" as full adults. This is a magical world with active gods. Just because something happens to share your morphology doesn't really mean a whole lot.
Morphology may not mean everything but it still plays a part, even if only in the unconscious minds of the players. Dwarves are indeed a bit mysterious. We at least know that elves interbreed with humans, and halflings have human-like families and communities. Dwarves may be odd but still appear largely (or shortly if you prefer) human. Dragonborn are lizards. It is definitely a step farther. Is it a step too far? That's up to the DM and players.
Dragonborn, while perhaps a bit physically intimidating, are closer to humans.
Closer than what? Closer than a gelatinous cube surely. Closer than an elf or halfling? No. Whether or not this important is up to you.
 

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