Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

[Alzrius]

So, back to the beginning. Why does Kelemvor, who clearly did care about Justice early on, and whose symbol is a scale to represent that he still does act as a Judge, continue to allow what is clearly an unfair torture device? One he specifically in the chapter piece posted a few pages ago, he is willing to send the insane into, even if their madness is caused by other Gods.

Perhaps this excerpt will help, also from Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad (set shortly before the aforementioned piece from a few pages back). Of course, note that this is written in the first person by Malik el Sami yn Nasser, Cyric's most devoted worshiper (who often refers to him as "the One and All"):

Kelemvor backed away and resumed his probing. Before many moments had passed, he pulled his sword from the molten rock and held it up before him. A flame as red as blood danced on the tip, crackling and wailing as it writhed.

"Zale Protelyus!"

The flame spun on Kelemvor's sword, then stopped wailing and kneeled on the steaming blade. "Lord Death."

"Zale Protelyus, why did you allow your foe to drag you into this fissure? Why did you cling to your sword when you could have let go and saved yourself?"

"To… stop… the… murderer!" Zale's words seemed to come with great effort and pain.

"But when you saw that you would die and fail anyway, still you held on. Why?"

"Nothing to fear… in death." Zale kept his blazing head bowed toward the sword. "Brave man in life… sure to receive reward in death."

"But you are Faithless! Who will reward you?"

For the first time, Zale raised his fiery head. "You… Lord Kelemvor! Trust your justice… before any god… who demands flattery… and offerings."

So stunned was Kelemvor that he shrank until his chest sank into the boiling lava. "Can Cyric be right?" His head barely reached the chasm brink. "Have I been too fair?"

It was then that Kelemvor perceived the infinite cunning of the One and All. To win Faerun for himself, Cyric had only to step aside and do nothing. Lady Magic would do half his work, denying the Weave to any force that harmed her beloved mortals, and Talos the Destroyer and the Battle Lord Tempus and Shar the Nightbringer would grow weak and start losing worshipers. Kelemvor would do the rest, treating the spirits of the noble and compassionate with such kindness that many would turn from their gods and trust to his justice instead.

But most critical was this: the brave and courageous would lose their fear of death and sacrifice themselves in foolish causes, as Zale had done. Faerun would be left to the cowardly and the corrupt. And when this was so – when all the other gods had grown weak through the compassion of Kelemvor and Mystra – then would the One rouse himself from his "madness" and call the wicked to his worship, and then would he drive all the other gods from his world.

All this Kelemvor perceived, and he saw that it was happening just as Cyric had planned. Still, he refused to think he had been doing the One's work. In his folly, he believed that every man strove for bravery and nobility, and he failed to understand that shielding the helpless encouraged laziness and dependence, and that treating the dead with compassion only made life all the more unbearable.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok, so the main argument against the wall seems to be that, since it inflicts suffering on souls that aren't necessarily evil, it should be under heavy criticism by the gods of good, and Kelemvor should tear it down or modify it. The good gods and Kelemvor not doing that is seen as hypocritical and a strike against their alignment. Is that correct?

I agree with doctorbadwolf on one thing: the wall isn't very much developed in lore. That is, unless we count Mask of the Betrayer, which is a fantastic videogame whose plot is based entirely around the wall and the conflicts that surround it, including full-fledged crusades by beings of good against its cruelty.

Even if we count MotB, though, I would still agree that it would be nice to know more about the wall. Was it really Myrkul who created it, as MotB states? Who exactly pressured Kelemvor to reinstate the wall when he temporarily decided to do away with it? A coalition of other dieties, or perhaps Ao itself?

As the DM, I tend to solve these kind of world building questions myself (and I enjoy doing so, because they often lead to campaign ideas), but if others want to be given all the facts, I won't necessarily disagree.

Kelemvor is LN.

Perhaps this excerpt will help, also from Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad (set shortly before the aforementioned piece from a few pages back). Of course, note that this is written in the first person by Malik el Sami yn Nasser, Cyric's most devoted worshiper (who often refers to him as "the One and All"):

Law of unintended consequences.

Kelemvor also changed after he ascended. I suppose the fugue plane might have that effect.

He's not there to push his mortal morality, it's to judge the dead. Being LN doesn't matter if that's fair or not.

 

[Contrariwise]

Figured I'd post this here as well.

First of all I think that unless you are running a module or pre-made campaign completely by the book campaign your game automatically becomes non-canon. There shouldn't be any hesitation in changing something like Ao's demand that the Wall stay. In my Forgotten Realms the Wall could be destroyed.....but it acts as a buffer to shore up the Fugue Plane. Tampering with it could allow greater evils to exploit the situation. Also in the event of the Wall's destruction the souls of the Faithless would simply be reincarnated with no memories of past lives whatsover. I am an agnostic atheist and I definitely wouldn't take that option.

Secondly there is definitely opportunity for player interaction with the Wall. Recently one of my group's goblin wizard got burnt up by a red dragon the party was battling. They won and were able to ressurect her but not before other souls waiting to be judged explained what the Wall was. Upon revival Vaika immediately began research to become a lich, with the contingency to become a vampire if she thought she would meet her end earlier.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Perhaps this excerpt will help, also from Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad (set shortly before the aforementioned piece from a few pages back). Of course, note that this is written in the first person by Malik el Sami yn Nasser, Cyric's most devoted worshiper (who often refers to him as "the One and All"):

...

But that doesn't make any sense.

Mystara might kill off some of the gods, sure, but she would gain massive worship. Kelemvor is also clearly gaining massive followers.

This means the two of them would become insanely powerful, far more than Cyric, who being a crazed, delusional god of treachery would have few followers.

I get that this is what they decided in the novel, but holy crap is that just stupid. It is like saying people won't fear jail if you don't beat prisoners daily. There is a gradient here between "Everyone wants to be here" and "torture"

Heck, the soul was just plain wrong, because Kelemvor would not judge him as brave, but foolish. Just like a many who employed servants for back-breaking labor for coppers isn't going to be judged as generous, no matter how he thought of his actions.

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Figured I'd post this here as well.

First of all I think that unless you are running a module or pre-made campaign completely by the book campaign your game automatically becomes non-canon. There shouldn't be any hesitation in changing something like Ao's demand that the Wall stay. In my Forgotten Realms the Wall could be destroyed.....but it acts as a buffer to shore up the Fugue Plane. Tampering with it could allow greater evils to exploit the situation. Also in the event of the Wall's destruction the souls of the Faithless would simply be reincarnated with no memories of past lives whatsover. I am an agnostic atheist and I definitely wouldn't take that option.

Secondly there is definitely opportunity for player interaction with the Wall. Recently one of my group's goblin wizard got burnt up by a red dragon the party was battling. They won and were able to ressurect her but not before other souls waiting to be judged explained what the Wall was. Upon revival Vaika immediately began research to become a lich, with the contingency to become a vampire if she thought she would meet her end earlier.

Sure, everything can be non-canon, but that doesn't help us address the canon.


Also, why is your Goblin Wizard Faithless? As a wizard wouldn't he worship the goddess of magic? Not judging the character, just trying to get context for why they were being told about the Wall in the first place.

 

[Hussar]

Nobody apparently interested in what Greenwood has to say on the issue?

 

[Contrariwise]

Sure, everything can be non-canon, but that doesn't help us address the canon.


Also, why is your Goblin Wizard Faithless? As a wizard wouldn't he worship the goddess of magic? Not judging the character, just trying to get context for why they were being told about the Wall in the first place.

I suppose my first point is I don't think the canon needs to be addressed at all unless you want everything about your game to be 100% canon. Especially when looking at something that has been rewritten multiple times.


As for Vaika (I am the Gm, not player) The character's origin is that she is a prideful goblin who rather quickly left her tribe, seeing her people as insignificant and ignorant. Soon afterwards she found a hermit wizard's hut who saw potential in her and tought her just enough that she could be called a wizard before he passed away. In short, though Vaika knows the gods exist she never paid any attention to them, even Mystra.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Nobody apparently interested in what Greenwood has to say on the issue?

It seemed like as long as you worshipped something you don't go in the Wall?

But that brings up the question why every source says "worship the gods" not "worship anything at all"

 

[Chaosmancer]

I suppose my first point is I don't think the canon needs to be addressed at all unless you want everything about your game to be 100% canon. Especially when looking at something that has been rewritten multiple times.


As for Vaika (I am the Gm, not player) The character's origin is that she is a prideful goblin who rather quickly left her tribe, seeing her people as insignificant and ignorant. Soon afterwards she found a hermit wizard's hut who saw potential in her and tought her just enough that she could be called a wizard before he passed away. In short, though Vaika knows the gods exist she never paid any attention to them, even Mystra.

Which... I get that you are building an interesting story, and I think it is a fun one... but man, "You were raised not paying attention to the Gods, so you are going to be destroyed after death for not worshiping them" that just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Contrariwise]

Which... I get that you are building an interesting story, and I think it is a fun one... but man, "You were raised not paying attention to the Gods, so you are going to be destroyed after death for not worshiping them" that just rubs me the wrong way.

Yeah, I have several players who always play naytheist characters (actively defiant towards the gods even though they acknowledge their power) but ultimately there are enough ways around the Wall that it's not an issue for them.

 

[Alzrius]

Just throwing this out there, from pages 46-47 of Power of Faerûn (affiliate link):

NEW FEAT: HERETIC OF THE FAITH

You stray significantly from the teachings of your faith.

Prerequisite: Patron deity and either divine spellcasting ability or code of conduct class ability.

Benefit: You can grossly violate your deity’s code of conduct, but not your class alignment restriction, without risk of loss of spells or class abilities. If you are a cleric, your alignment can be two steps away from your respective deity’s alignment instead of just one. (In other words, you can violate your deity’s alignment restrictions by one extra step.) You can gain levels without atoning (see the atonement spell description). However, you are in no way exempt from excommunication or immune to divine retribution from your deity or his servants. In fact, your actions invite the highest level of divine scrutiny.

If you have access to domains, you can exchange any one domain you have already selected for another domain outside those normally available to your faith. The new domain must be consistent with the tenets of your heresy (as adjudicated by the DM). Likewise, you can exchange your favored weapon and weapon of the deity spell^Mag effect for another consistent with the tenets of your heresy (as adjudicated by the DM).

Taking this feat automatically prompts a Leadership check. All cohorts or followers who are members of your faith either agree to the heresy or are lost.

Moreover, upon your death you are judged one of the False (see page 259 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting) unless your deity specifically intervenes on your behalf with Kelemvor. Without the use of a miracle or wish spell, this does not happen unless your heresies are adopted by the deity and the faith as a whole. It is theoretically possible that such intervention could occur long after your death, but such cases are vanishingly rare.

Normal: If you grossly violate your deity’s code of conduct, you risk losing spells and class abilities until you atone (see the atonement spell description and Sins and Penance, page 232 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting).