Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[Vaalingrade]

How is it murderous? No one is forced to take the test (unless they’ve been abusing magic). You can just not practice magic.

Or they murder you.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I think you'd better back away from that example. In no way were the Crusades an example of "Good vs. Evil", it was an example of two cultures and faiths clashing.

The Kingpriest even started subjugating other “good” religion worshipers.

Yeah it’s not an exact match, just using it as a real world example of self-perceived “good” people doing the “good” work.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Or they murder you.

Turns out simply requesting people stop abusing the arcane forces of creation doesnt hold a lot of water.

Ultimate power and ultimate responsibility and all that.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Again, that's the end result of the idea you're putting forward,

not the only one... its a possible outcome.

that Good wizards are bound by their alignment to oppose Evil wizards. That level of "no compromise, only opposition" leads to war.

no one is saying no compromise... not allowing the evil voices 1/3 say over all of magic is not much of an absalute.

So you're saying they should just ignore Evil wizard and let them do whatever they're going to do?

no you are

They don't have to protect them, at least not individually. They have to protect magic as an order, including its practitioners.

even evil practitioners useing magic for evil...

Can you cite a source for that?

many post but I started with post 1 and 2 on this thread

A lot of that was inevitable. WotC have taken the view (rightly, IMO) that a large part of their customer base deal with far too much racism, sexism, and homophobia in their everyday lives and just don't want that stuff appearing in their entertainment (even racism between entirely fictional groups). Also, quite a lot of the original Dragonlance is strongly influenced by Hickman's Mormon faith, which gives another chunk of material to be quietly de-emphasized.

So, yeah, there's going to be a pretty heavy revision being done, and it is going to strongly move towards supporting war stories and away from the strongly dualistic good vs evil morality of the originals.

For adventurers, yes. But in terms of world-building it's a little more complicated than that.

no it isn't

The answer is an unequivocal yes; or do you not think there are evil fighters, evil priests, and evil thieves?

I'm sure there are, but the general way evil backstabs means without good and neutral it will fall apart.

I agree that evil is bad, but I don't agree with the idea that anything less than a full-throated attempt to stamp out evil isn't Good.

except I NEVER SAID THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe, maybe not. But whatever it will be, we're talking about what it could be now.

right and lets face it WotC isn't changing casting charts. they aren't I would bet everything on it.

This is incorrect. The White Robes are as good

nope not by any D&D standard... in a 'shades of grey' way maybe but not D&D 9 alignments.

as they can reasonably be, because they've taken the best option out of the ones that are available to them. The current paradigm does what's best for the greatest number of people, rather than causing mass suffering so they can say that they "tried" to stop evil. "The ends do not justify the means" is a basic tenet of goodness, after all.

and that lines you at neutral not good... maintain the system and the balance get the most good for while allowing evil...

If you're going to point to the real world, there are many instances of countries overlooking atrocities and human rights violations by other countries, including contemporary examples. But I suspect you don't want to get into that, lest you get the thread closed.

would you call any of them good on the D&D spectrum of 9 alignments? I doubt it.

Again, the Conclave is not helping the Black Robes gain power. It's helping to regulate all wizardry, Black Robes and Red Robes and White Robes alike. That by itself is not in contravention with goodness. And in some cases, yes, that means having to let evil be evil, because there's no better option.

if you let evil be evil you are not good.

Incorrect analogy is incorrect. The situation between the various orders of wizards isn't comparable to that of Superman and Lex Luthor.

good vs bad/

That's also not right. In fact, I think the entire idea of "good people don't associate with evil people" is strongly suspect.

wait... what? You think (knowingly) a good person (by D&D good alignment) will willingly associate and work with a evil person (by D&D standards)!?!?!

Associating with evil people is how you show them that it's better not to be evil, as opposed to isolating them with other evil people who reinforce their odious ideas.

That requires you to oppes those evil acts and views... at BEST your argument is all the white cloaks should be following the black cloaks around to teach them morality... I don't want to entertain what the worst way to read this is.

I'm sure if feels good to act self-righteous and say "I'm too good for them," but it's not actually good-aligned.

lets talk alingment then... from D&D itself Personality and Background

Lawful Good. (LG) creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society. Gold dragons and paladins are typically lawful good.

Neutral Good. (NG) folk do the best they can to help others according to their needs. Many celestials are neutral good.

Chaotic Good. (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect. Copper dragons and unicorns are typically chaotic good.

can be counted on to do the right thing (nothing about allowing or putting up with evil... just will do teh right thing, like oppose evil, not try to kill kids for learning magic, not putting people through PTSD inducing tests)
do the best they can to help others according to their needs. (again nothing about allowing or putting up with evil... just will help others, not force people into PTSD inducing tests, nothing about hunting down other good people who don't join your club house)
act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect. (This is the cclosest you get... acts as there own conscience directs gives you some wiggle room that maybe there conscience thinks a PTSD inducing test and 1/3 of there order admiting to be evil MIGHT get by)

at best that is 1 out of 3 good alignments and you gotta squint and assume they don't mind evil for even THAT one.

 

[Vaalingrade]

"Officer, I told her she'd get the hose again if she didn't put the lotion on her skin. What happened next is on her and my conscience is clear."

 

[Stormonu]

except they FORCE GOOD PEOPLE TO RISK THERE LIVES to test for some reason... and people keep saying "it's a brother hood"

but they are more then willing to sacrificing people for evil lols

I think of it more like boot camp. You're being taught and tested, but accidents can happen out in the field or on the range. You're not purposely putting someone's life at risk, but conditions and actions can make it possible.

Except, in Raist's case, as Par-Salen noted, he was asked to "make a tool for the Gods", and he knew that it meant putting Raist into (extreme) danger.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The Kingpriest even started subjugating other “good” religion worshipers.

Yeah it’s not an exact match, just using it as a real world example of self-perceived “good” people doing the “good” work.

evil people can call themselves good (they do all the time) but that doesn't mena the game should (in 5e in 2022)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

"Officer, I told her she'd get the hose again if she didn't put the lotion on her skin. What happened next is on her and my conscience is clear."

she was asking for it, that is a bad side to be on in this day and age, I'm not sure it was a great one in the 80's and 90's...

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think of it more like boot camp. You're being taught and tested, but accidents can happen out in the field or on the range. You're not purposely putting someone's life at risk, but conditions and actions can make it possible.

And also they just merc anyone who doesn't report for reverie..

 

[DarkCrisis]

"Officer, I told her she'd get the hose again if she didn't put the lotion on her skin. What happened next is on her and my conscience is clear."

Keep in mind you can cast all the 1st and 2nd level spells you want. Think of all the stuff you can do with just that magic. This isn’t about some kid running around making funny little illusions.

It’s when you have the ability to throw fireballs and lightening bolts etc the Mages get involved.

You may be fine with a guy running around with an unlimited grenade launcher unregulated but most people aren’t.