Driuds: Too Much Metal

[Hussar]

Druids can't use metal because it makes them mechanically more balanced with clerics.



What?

 

[Wik]

I just want to add a rider to Celebrim's comments above. he is corrent as far as I know in the general thrust of his comment but there are some societies that did have a notion of balance. The ones that I have read about were Pacific island societies that suffered an environmental crisis but managed to correct themsevles and change enouugh to maintain a better lifestyle that some of their neighbours that did not change.

Right! Like those wise people on Easter island! When they saw what they were doing, they put a stop to things, and all lived happily ever.... oh... wait.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Easter Island is in the Pacific, and you can basically look at the society as this: they were alone in the ocean - no one could leave, and no one new showed up. They had an entirely insular culture, and it was one where the priesthood got more and more power. They started building these huge stone idols to venerate gods/spirits/Steve Irwin/whatever. To build these stones, it took a lot of manpower - and wood. But they built them for reasons of prestige over other tribal groups, and probably because they seriously believed those stone idols were protecting them.

But Easter island is not that large, and they could clearly see that they were deforesting their land building these stones. WIthout wood, they cannot build boats, tools, or things that help them fish (their primary means of subsistence). Plus, no forests means no large game, so less food there, too! And they weren't stupid - they had to know this.

And yet, even though they could see their entire island from the highest point, they still cut down the trees. In fact, when they realized there was an ecological crisis, the pace at which they created these huge stone idols actually increased. And when they saw that there was only one tree left, only one tree that could possibly, one day, reforest their island.... they still cut it down to make their stone idols.

Any other pacific islander culture you want to look at can be seen in a smaller vein, but it isn't necessarily about realizing they need to be sustainable - it's about group dynamics and cross-pollination of peoples.

And European reforestation has been going on for centuries before the 1700s. Look at many of the forests in Germany, France, and England, where every tree in the "Forest" is part of long rows.

 

[Lidgar]

There is little doubt in my mind that Druids and Metal get along just fine.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtnkUijAnH4]YouTube - Fferyllt - Dance Of Druids[/ame]

 

[pawsplay]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlf5ucFanpY]YouTube - Spinal Tap Tiny Stonehenge[/ame]

 

[Wepwawet]

Another thing about historical druids that is indirectly related to the Druids and metal talk:
They didn't write nor had a writing system. Instead they kept all their knowledge on memory and passed it down orally. To comit all that stuff to paper or stone would make it less magical or less sublime, it would be like dessecrating all that mystical knowledge.
Then there's ogham. Although some people see it as an alphabet (each symbol has the name of a plant and corresponds to the first letter of that name), it was used as a mnemonic device to record bigger abstract stuff.

Now after reading Celebrim's great posts I'm not so sure about this. I still think most of this is true, which is one of the biggest reasons we know so little about the Druids.

EDIT: btw, i wanted to give Celebrim another XP, but ENW doesn't let me

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Right! Like those wise people on Easter island! When they saw what they were doing, they put a stop to things, and all lived happily ever.... oh... wait.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Easter Island is in the Pacific, and you can basically look at the society as this: they were alone in the ocean - no one could leave, and no one new showed up. They had an entirely insular culture, and it was one where the priesthood got more and more power. They started building these huge stone idols to venerate gods/spirits/Steve Irwin/whatever. To build these stones, it took a lot of manpower - and wood. But they built them for reasons of prestige over other tribal groups, and probably because they seriously believed those stone idols were protecting them.

But Easter island is not that large, and they could clearly see that they were deforesting their land building these stones. WIthout wood, they cannot build boats, tools, or things that help them fish (their primary means of subsistence). Plus, no forests means no large game, so less food there, too! And they weren't stupid - they had to know this.

And yet, even though they could see their entire island from the highest point, they still cut down the trees. In fact, when they realized there was an ecological crisis, the pace at which they created these huge stone idols actually increased. And when they saw that there was only one tree left, only one tree that could possibly, one day, reforest their island.... they still cut it down to make their stone idols.

Any other pacific islander culture you want to look at can be seen in a smaller vein, but it isn't necessarily about realizing they need to be sustainable - it's about group dynamics and cross-pollination of peoples.

And European reforestation has been going on for centuries before the 1700s. Look at many of the forests in Germany, France, and England, where every tree in the "Forest" is part of long rows.

I am well aware of Easter Island and yes more often than not societies collapse rather than change their ways. I was thinking of stuff I had read in Jared Diamond's book on the subject and I was thinking of Tikopia

 

[Umbran]

And they weren't stupid - they had to know this.

You seem to be making the common mistake of confusing stupidity and ignorance. Very bright people may still not know things that you think obvious. Without evidence, you shouldn't assume the people of Rapa Nui had something like a modern understanding of ecosystems, or that they'd base their decisions on what we might consider reasonable cause and effect.

Heck, often enough, people alive now often don't make decisions based on what we'd consider reasonable cause and effect!

 

[Wik]

You seem to be making the common mistake of confusing stupidity and ignorance. Very bright people may still not know things that you think obvious. Without evidence, you shouldn't assume the people of Rapa Nui had something like a modern understanding of ecosystems, or that they'd base their decisions on what we might consider reasonable cause and effect.

Heck, often enough, people alive now often don't make decisions based on what we'd consider reasonable cause and effect!

No no. I get that. But consider that these were people who could actually climb the central hill/mountain on their island and see their ENTIRE island. they could SEE that there was one tree left. And they knew that once it was gone, there would be no more.

Easter Island/Rapa Nui is a great example of when people's religious beliefs/form of government gets in the way of common sense. And all those moai stones - they were trashed by the Easter islanders themselves, a century later when they realized just how screwed they were.

 

[Umbran]

No no. I get that. But consider that these were people who could actually climb the central hill/mountain on their island and see their ENTIRE island. they could SEE that there was one tree left. And they knew that once it was gone, there would be no more.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they recognized that this would be a Bad Thing, or that even if it was bad, that stopping was the best alternative.

Easter Island/Rapa Nui is a great example of when people's religious beliefs/form of government gets in the way of common sense.

1) Let's not go to the religion and politics thing, please.

2) My point is that what is "common sense" to us today may not have been so to them, centuries ago, without the perspective of the following centuries of scientific discoveries behind us. Judge them not by our current knowledge.

For comparison: in Europe, spontaneous generation of life from inanimate matter was discussed as a fact into the Renaissance. Shakespeare references crocodiles and snakes forming out of the mud of the Nile in Antony and Cleopatra!

So, even if the people of Easter Island knew they had a major problem on their hands (which, actually, I'll grant you), we don't know if they'd have really identified the same thing we do as the cause, or the same thing we would as the best way to fix the problem. They probably didn't understand how the system worked, to be able to manipulate it reliably.

 

[Hussar]

Heh, I know I was being a bit facetious with the whole balance thing, but, at the end of the day, that's got a lot to do with it.

Note, it's not that druids can't use metal at all - they can. They can use metal weapons with no problem. Heck, unlike clerics, they can use SHARP weapons. oooohhh.

But, they can't use metal armor. That's the big trade off. You gain funky shape changing abilities (which, way back when, were nowhere near as powerful as they got in 3e) at the cost of being able to get a decent armor class. In a system where you cannot buy magic items, getting that AC down wasn't easy.

Mr. Cleric, by second level possibly, has plate and shield - AC 2 before any Dex adjustments. The baddies don't get bonuses to hit, by and large, and their THAC0's are running around 16-20 at that level. That's some pretty decent odds of not getting clawed or bitten by something ugly.

Mr. Druid, otoh, has leather armor and a wooden shield - AC 7. That's a HUGE drop in AC in that system. Forget hide, wasn't in the system yet. And studded leather has metal in it.

This wasn't about trying to recreate anything historical, it was about making sure that the druid didn't step on the cleric's toes.