DriveThruRPG Exclusivity

[Orcus]

Those are excellent posts, Joseph, pogre.

Steve, I wanted to just touch on some of your issues. I know they have been done to death. But hey, I just got here! (busy week)

1. 6 registration limit.

I dont know the answer to this. But to me this is a hypothetical problem. I sure dont see needing to install on more than 6 computers. Maybe I am behind the times, but I dont think so. Between my desktop and home, my desktop at work, my laptop and my tablet computer (yes I have all 4) that still leaves 2. Oh I guess I could use my windows-based ipaq too. That still isnt 6. My understanding is that if you crash and have to redo your drive or you buy a new computer to replace your old one that you can call Adobe and they can reset. I see your issue about upgrades. Particularly if you have 40+ pdfs. I dont know if you can do that in one call or not. I'll tell you what. I will email Steve and the DTRPG guys and find out and get them to post an answer on the site in the FAQ.

2. DTRPG going out of business

I think the registration is with Adobe and DTRPG but I dont know for sure.

I will pass both of these on to Steve and the DTRPG people and I will have an answer for you.

Clark

 

[Dinkeldog]

Hey guys, thanks for keeping things at a polite level again.

 

[2WS-Steve]

I dont know the answer to this. But to me this is a hypothetical problem. I sure dont see needing to install on more than 6 computers. Maybe I am behind the times, but I dont think so. Between my desktop and home, my desktop at work, my laptop and my tablet computer (yes I have all 4) that still leaves 2. Oh I guess I could use my windows-based ipaq too. That still isnt 6. My understanding is that if you crash and have to redo your drive or you buy a new computer to replace your old one that you can call Adobe and they can reset. I see your issue about upgrades. Particularly if you have 40+ pdfs. I dont know if you can do that in one call or not. I'll tell you what. I will email Steve and the DTRPG guys and find out and get them to post an answer on the site in the FAQ.

Clark

For me, it's not a problem of installing on multiple computers at any one time. I figure at most I'd have one on my home desktop, one on my laptop that I take when I DM at someone else's house, and perhaps one on a work computer.

It's purely about making sure I'll be able to get the occasional use of my RPG collection in my future gaming. Often, RPG books are the kind of thing I can't work immediately into my game, but can find a spot for sometime down the line, or use bits of over time. I figure that's the tradeoff of RPG books--games take so long to play out that you might not get to use your purchase for a while, but then, you can always find some kind of use for that Dungeon magazine you still have from 1982.

But with an upgrade cycle of a new computer every 2-3 years, I know I'll be looking at one of those not-just-mildly annoying phone calls to Adobe where I try to explain to the overworked tech support guy that I need to deregister 20+ books. And I have this sneaky suspicion that's he's going to say something like "You're freaking nuts! 20 books! I need to talk to my manager."

Then two years later I'll need to say "er, I need 40 books deregistered..."

 

[Tsyr]

For myself, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, Orcus, while I don't *like* DTRPG, I'd still be willing to buy from them. In the same way I'm willing to buy from a FLGS store I dont like, if its the only way to get something.

The DRM is another issue, and I won't buy as long as that is on.

To me there are valid reasons for DRM, if for no other reason than that it encourages otherwise unwilling companies to be a part of the project. If you remove the "moral revulsion" factor, I truly dont find the restrictions that onerous. I tried it out with the free download. I could copy and paste and I felt I could use the document as I needed to use it. The only thing I felt the restrictions might have limited me was that they didnt allow me to do 100% of anything I wanted. But the things I couldnt do were things that I wasnt really going to do. I was losing hypothetical usability, not actual usability. But that is, perhaps, just me.

Except that I can't use it on my laptop, any of my desktops that dont run windows, people cant use it on Macs that run OS9, nobody can use them on their PDA, and no matter how slick DTRPG wants us to believe it is, there is more than one person who is unable to get them to work even in the ways they are supposed to for unknown reasons.

And that's *if* you remove the ethics of it, which isn't going to happen for most of the protestors.

Multiple publishers have said words to the effect of "I don't think DRM is probably very effective, but it gives some companies a sense of security". Fine. But if you are one of these people that thinks its probably not very effective (And I'm not speaking specificly to you, Orcus, though feel free to listen anyhow ), why not drop the DRM on your products. Be an example to these other companies. They're already over the biggest hurdle. Their products are out in such a way that if anyone wants them, they can be pirated now.

I don't know what was said, of course, but I'd almost bet that the absolute insecurity of DRM was not mentioned to these reluctant publishers to whom its a security blanket. Just like Adobe isn't very forthcomming with that information.

 

[malladin]

One thing to remember though is that this is NOT new, untested technology. It has been around for some time, and has not been greatly successful and has been generally reviled. Here is my biggest fear.

- Piracy on the DRMed materials will actually increase, for two reasons. One, cracking the encryption is a lot easier than scanning a whole book. And you end up with a better quality product, in theory losing only bookmarks as I understand. Second, anything with DRM is like putting a big sign on your product that says "Please pirate me so you can brag about it on IRC"

- The public will be greatly turned off by these crippled PDFs, ultimately causing DTRPG to falter.

- End result that more piracy is going on and few publishers will want to get behind electronic publishing.

I think my 'wait and see' argument is more a case of an understanding of the market forces involved. I think there's a lot of people who wouldn't be bothered by the restictions of DRM. As a user I generally download the book to my PC and read it on-screen. I don't bother to print it out (my printer is next to useless) and I don't have another computer I might want to put it on. I don't see that DRM would affect my use of PDF products at all. And looking at the results of the customer Polls at RPGNow.com, I think people like me are in the majority of the user base. Therefore it becomes an issue of balancing out how much of a problem the DRM is as opposed to how much I want the products available on DTRPG. Thats just market forces and no-one really knows how this will pan out one way or the other. We can all make educated guesses, but we can do the same about sporting results, and I've never won a bet I've made on a sporting event. Therefore, I'd say we'll all have to wait and see. The same goes for whether it will lead to more piracy or less, there's no way to truely know until the dice have come to a halt, and at the moment they're still only being shaken.

Cheerio,

Ben

 

[Psion]

1. 6 registration limit.

I dont know the answer to this. But to me this is a hypothetical problem. I sure dont see needing to install on more than 6 computers.

It's not about how many computers or devices you have now. It's about how many you will have. I don't know about you, but for the last 10 years are an indication, I upgrade computers about three times as often as I do game editions. And that's not even counting new hard drives or clean windows installs (which I occasionally find necessary after I have installed a number of software products that don't play nicely with others and don't remove cleanly.)

I think adobe is sort of short sighted on this point (either that, or limiting the life of the products was intentional.) I perfectly understand why there is a small limit on products; otherwise it's no limit at all. You could just share an adobe ID among a group.

But they could allow X number of new registrations per Y years. That would account for the computer turnover thing but not expose users to the whim of Adobe's tech support (and the hassle of havin to deal with them.)

But in short, I don't think this format is credible for end users yet. If I buy TOH online, I would want it to last just as long as the one on my shelf.

 

[Morpheus]

Right now, I'm not sure. What I see is alot of new people posting here. I suspect these are RPG.net types who have come here to vent their bile and anger over this issue. I also take note that RPG.net is on fire with this discussion, which speaks volumes to me as to how I should interpret this.

Clark

Thanks for reminding me of a couple of things. One-I go to rpg.net to laugh at all of the ridiculousness that is put in a forum and I come here to have reasoned discussions. Two-I had an epiphany about gaming while reading this thread (Sunday-bored-what are you going to do?) and it was just this: This is a game and a hobby for me. When it ceases to become fun I either quit or call it my job. This whole DRM thing has certainly put that in perspective for me.

P.S. Thanks, Clark, for the well-thought out contribution you added to this thread. Also, thanks for the Lost CIty of Barakus. I'm getting ready to run it...

 

[Dinkeldog]

My understanding of Adobe's registration is that it's essentially a virtual site license ("virtual" in the sense that there doesn't have to be one physical "site" where all the devices are). So what you do is set up the 6 computers for anything under the Adobe license/registration. And then everything you use that's in that registration is good for those 6 computers. So you're not registering each individual PDF or program you can use for 6 different computers but all of them for the 6 same computers. When you call Adobe, you change the 6 computers on which you can use anything you've registered.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

One thing I have done right away is edit that "professional" reference from the standard press release for DTRPG. Frankly, I didnt even catch that language as offensive, but once I read some of the complaints I re-read the release and said "yeah, I see why that might upset people" and I removed it. So I am listening.

Thank you for listening in general and taking time to answer questions on these boards. I'm glad to see that you have corrected this and since Steve has appologized to RPGnow as well I don't realy see this as an issue for anyone anymore (unless some other publisher includes this in a future press release).

Plus, in all honesty, I'm not sure that removing DRM actually would make many of these "alleged" purchasers happy. Maybe I am wrong, but I think many of the "I object to DRM" alleged purchasers will continue to dislike DTRPG no matter what. They will just move on to the "its run by WW and I dont like that" issue. Or to the "you are trying to ruin RPGNow" issue. Or any other issue.

There might be some who will object to DTRPG because it is run by WW or that it is not RPGNow, and you are right they will never be your customer as long as you are with DTRPG. However there are many people as well who's objection to DTRPG is the DRM issue. Look at Psion, here is a reasonable person by most peoples standards who is objecting to DRM not DTRPG in particular. While I can't speak for him, it wouldn't surprise me if he would be willing to purchace non-DRM PDFs from Drive-Thru. I personaly object to DRM as well and any statements I have made to punish DTRPG have been based on this issue. If even one company (Monte seems the most likely canidate) were to publish DRM free PDFs on DTRPG then I will no longer have any reason to complan about DTRPG. At that point it becomes not an issue of DTRPG (who is just providing the services that their clients ask for) but the individual publishers who are making this decision for whatever reason. Any complaints I have about how a publisher chooses to release its products will then solely fall on that particular publisher alone.

Right now, I'm not sure. What I see is alot of new people posting here. I suspect these are RPG.net types who have come here to vent their bile and anger over this issue. I also take note that RPG.net is on fire with this discussion, which speaks volumes to me as to how I should interpret this.

If you are afraid of the bleed over from RPG.net then feel free to discount some of the newer posters. But please don't discount ENWorld regulars (you can check the post counts and join dates by their avatars). You will likely find that many of the regulars here are part of the anti-DRM movement as well.

That guy isnt changing his mind just because I remove DRM. Then, by removing DRM, larger publishers have no interest in joining DTRPG, which I think is one of its greatest benefits. Heck, look at the stuff you can get there. And those publishers, IMHO, are there because of the security of DRM.

I dont want to restart the security issue discussion. I know the different sides.

Could I call DTRPG and ask them to remove DRM? I guess I could. But that isnt the sole issue. As I said above it isnt like people will magically become happy with DTRPG if DRM is removed. I think that is the most convenient crutch for people who are anti-DTRPG for MANY reasons, the DRM just being the leading issue. DRM was not forced on us, but we all signed up for delivery of files over an Adobe server with an understanding the files would be protected/encrypted. That is what we signed up for. It wasnt forced on us.

So lets see what happens if just one publisher released non-DRM PDFs on DTRPG and see what happens. The larger companies who need the security blanket of DRM could keep it on their files while the publishers who acknowlege that DRM is not an answer to security release DRM free PDFs (Monte certainly seemed to feel the open PDFs were fine to sell). I suspect that the moderates here on ENWorld would be happy to buy Non-DRM PDFs from DTRPG and the debate would continue rage over DRM but DTRPG would no longer be the target it is now.

I need some time to figure out what all this vitriol means. I need to know if these people saying they wont by our stuff is legit. Right now I think people are upset with DTRPG for lots of reasons. I dont think just taking off the DRM will fix them and now magically make people say "oh I love DTRPG and want to buy stuff from them." I think they will just move on to another reason why the dont like DTRPG which is something that DTRPG wont ever be able to fix--they arent RPGNow. I dont make rash decision. I take my time and try to figure things out. In the end, I may lose sales or I may not. That is hard to judge. In all honesty, people saying they wont buy my stuff doesnt mean that person actually would have anyway. I have seen this conduct before. I need time to determine what I believe is the actual impact of these comments. I can tell you, I havent recieved even ONE email griping about DRM on Necro titles.

But believe me when I tell you I am listening to all the concerns and I will do my best to tailor the needs of my fans to the most appropriate business model for Necro. I always have and I always will. That doesnt mean I will be able in the end to give people exactly what they want, but I will do my best to find the appropriate solution. I will say that I wont reach this decison over night and certainly not based on soem of the hostile emails. I appreciate everyone's passion, certainly, but I want things to calm down a bit.

For what it is worth I would suggest you keep in close contact with Monte. Yes you will need some time to figure out what if any all of these complaints will have and what you should do. Monte will be the best source of data on sales as he will have good pre/post DRM sales figures. Perhaps all of us DRM complainers are a vocal minority who would never buy your products anways, but there is also the possibility that we are your customers. As you point out, only time will tell. Its good to know you are listening though.

 

[Umbran]

Now, I should also add that I believe that persons who hold these moral revulsion to products using DRM to be a very vocal minority.

Considering that the majority usually has troubles even keeping their computers virus-free, yes you'd expect the folks who have a strong opinion about this sort of security (either for or against) to be a minority.

You're a businessman, and overall you're concerned mostly about sales and profit. If these folks are a vocal minority, they may not hurt your sales much, directly. If they are correct, though, that this DRM is a bad idea, in the medium or long terms publishers may be doing themselves and the industry some damage.

But I dont know one way or another. One thing I can tell you is that I am not going to make a rash decision one way or the other based on a week of flaming on a board.

With respect - in some ways it seems like some of you publishers have already made rash, or at least poorly researched, decisions with respect to DTRPG and DRM. More on that below.

To me there are valid reasons for DRM, if for no other reason than that it encourages otherwise unwilling companies to be a part of the project.

Having otherwise unwilling companies join in is nice, so long as the possible failure of the venture doesn't drive them away from similar projects in the future.

Could I call DTRPG and ask them to remove DRM? I guess I could.

Are you aware that on the front page of DTRPG it says, "All of our books are in a secure PDF format. This means you must have Adobe Reader 6 and your Digital Rights Management (DRM) must be activated in order to view the files." This seems to be an implication that you cannot.

DRM was not forced on us, but we all signed up for delivery of files over an Adobe server with an understanding the files would be protected/encrypted. That is what we signed up for. It wasnt forced on us.

It may not have been forced upon you, but from here (which is a place of limited information, I admit), it looks like it wasn't a well-informed decision. You gave your product to a vendor, knowing that it would be encrypted, but you don't know your rights regarding removing that encryption? From such a thoughtful guy as you, I find that a tad surprising.

It leaves me wondering. Were you told of how easy it was to bypass? Were you told that it would be controversial? Did any of you go out and ask some of the computer-savvy geeks that comprise your target market what they thought of DRM before deciding to use it?

I won't be surprised if you cannot legally or ethically answer those questions. If the answer to any of them is "no", though, I'd say there's a problem in there somewhere, intentional or otherwise.