DriveThruRPG Exclusivity

[johnsemlak]

99.9999% of people who would bother to pirate a book can and would bother to crack a pdf.

I guess we're just not going to agree on this point, and I dont' know if it's worth debating to death. I just don't know if that's true.

There are a lot of different internet users out there.

A number of publishers seem to think it the security will stop at least some pirates. I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on that point. It's their IP and money on the line. And I'm sure they're not using the security to make customers upset.

 

[francisca]

People right now bother to sit and scan printed books page by page.
Are you saying people who will do that won't do this?

99.9999% of people who would bother to pirate a book can and would bother to crack a pdf.

I agree with you, but I think your argument is not quite right. Just like most people who download MP3s, those who aquire pirated RPG books do not do the scanning or purchasing, and will not be the ones doing the cracking. They will simply wait around for someone else to do so. All you need is one scan or one non-DRM copy then it is all over.

I firmly believe that DRM will make it easier to pirate previously print-only material, as the single biggest barrier, scanning, is no longer needed. Just crack the DRM and you are done.

Of course, I think this will lead to extra print-copy sales as well, as at least some people out there prefer print to pdf.

 

[BryonD]

I guess we're just not going to agree on this point, and I dont' know if it's worth debating to death. I just don't know if that's true.

There are a lot of different internet users out there.

A number of publishers seem to think it the security will stop at least some pirates. I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on that point. It's their IP and money on the line. And I'm sure they're not using the security to make customers upset.

Can you point me to where one of these publishers has answered this question?

Can you describe to me a model where by a pirate who would bother to sit and scan every freaking page would be put off by cracking a DRM pdf?

Are you really just agreeing to disagree on blind faith? Because it is not like this is a difference of opinion. If your side is correct, then you I can not have done something that I HAVE done.

 

[BryonD]

I agree with you, but I think your argument is not quite right. Just like most people who download MP3s, those who aquire pirated RPG books do not do the scanning or purchasing, and will not be the ones doing the cracking. They will simply wait around for someone else to do so. All you need is one scan or one non-DRM copy then it is all over.

I firmly believe that DRM will make it easier to pirate previously print-only material, as the single biggest barrier, scanning, is no longer needed. Just crack the DRM and you are done.

Of course, I think this will lead to extra print-copy sales as well, as at least some people out there prefer print to pdf.

Certainly. There are probably only a few dozen people bothering to scan the books now. They provide the source material that unknown numbers of people then pass along.

However, those few dozen people will now have any even easier time priming the pump. And because it is so easy to do, ten times that many people will probably be producing source material.

Anyway, this may just be trivial details regarding the path to be taken. It seems we both agree what the end result will be.

The piracy leads to more sales in the long run is a seperate matter. I can see the reasoning, but I have no idea if it turns out to be true or not in practice.

 

[BryonD]

double post

 

[francisca]

A number of publishers seem to think it the security will stop at least some pirates. I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on that point.

And once the DRM has been removed from a pdf, what barrier is there to piracy? Only one pirate has to remove DRM from the file, then it hits the P2P nets.

A lock on a door will stop casual thieves. But what happens when the door is removed?

 

[francisca]

Certainly. There are probably only a few dozen people bothering to scan the books now. They provide the source material that unknown numbers of people then pass along.

However, those few dozen people will now have any even easier time priming the pump. And because it is so easy to do, ten times that many people will probably be producing source material.

Anyway, this may just be trivial details regarding the path to be taken. It seems we both agree what the end result will be.

The piracy leads to more sales in the long run is a seperate matter. I can see the reasoning, but I have no idea if it turns out to be true or not in practice.

Ah yes. I hadn't considered that even more would be pirating, due to the ease of removing DRM. In hindsight, it's a no-brainer.

And on the last point, I don't think we'll ever know, though the Baen Books example will be the closest approximation.

 

[RPGgirl]

I know of at least one major author that has taken the stance and made large chunks of his books available for download from his site. The theory being that if people like what they read, they'll go out and buy the actual book. I think the same holds true for RPGA material. Rather than spend hours sitting at Barnes and Noble, Chapters, Indigo, or the local gameshops, people will download a scanned copy, decide if they like and then go out and buy it. Fact is, pirated copies will not replace printed copies, and people that use the pirated copy without buying the printed copy would like never have bought the printed copy in the first place, probably because the book is just not useful enough to them.

 

[LeaderDesslok]

Wow, lots of info going back and forth. I initially posted some interesting problems with DRM way back on page 5. My initial reaction to Drivethrurpg.com was negative, mainly because of the idea of exclusivity and a poorly functioning security scheme, but I admit my perceptions were colored by the massively negative outcry I read on forums. I'm a week older and wiser now <<ahem>>, and my opinion of DTRPG is a bit different. Just some general comments, which hopefully won't offend anyone.

* DRM is bad. I don't say this because of any moral implications, or because it is so easily crackable, but because of the problems I've had using it. First I was able to download and fully use two free PDFs I got from DTRPG without activating DRM, and now I'm having problems downloading a free and a paid PDF both without and with DRM activated. DTRPG says the file was delivered, but Adobe Reader shows nothing. Still waiting on tech support, but my first message regarding this was last night (Sunday), so there's probably a backlog of service messages. Hopefully it will be resolved, but I suspect I will have more problems in the future.

* The vitriol over the press release stating that DTRPG was the first "professional" PDF site was probably warranted, but after reading Orcus' comments I think the real problem with the statement comes down to context. The use of "professional" in the release seems to indicate that only companies that have to date provided hard copy, printed products as their primary income channel are professional. To those users who are not very familiar with the PDF market or are not as computer savvy as others this makes sense and would be very attractive. When it comes down to it, I think it is more a case of poor wording than anything else. Steve and the folks at DTRPG perhaps should have recognized this as a problem, but they didn't and have apologized for it. I don't think a majority of people are going to care either way in another month.

* Some publishers have been very negative towards DTRPG. I can't help but think that there is some level of jealousy going on there, having not been "invited" to join the initial offering of corporate products. I might take some heat for that statement, but I think it's true.

* As a publisher, I would think the biggest obstacle to signing on with them would be the exclusivity deal. It hasn't been stated explicity yet that that is a requirement (I think), but I assume it is. As a publisher, I would want to be able to offer my products on a number of different sites, including both DTRPG and RPGNow, rather than lock myself in with one company, no matter how successful that company may become. That being said, I remind you that I AM NOT A PUBLISHER. It's just my view.

* I will most assuredly continue to buy products from DTRPG. I will most assuredly also continue to buy products from RPGNow. I'll go to DTRPG to get "name brand" products (by that I mean stuff that's also available in brick and mortar stores) and I'll go to RPGNow for the other publishers that offer me cool products that I'd otherwise miss. These two companies can easily coexist without hurting my rather small wallet. RPGNow has not lost a customer, I'm just shopping around.

* Instead of hurling insults or accusations around, I think we should all look at the big picture and congratulate DTRPG for getting non-PDF publishers to offer products online. I don't care if it was shifty and underhanded or on the level, if it took 6 months or six days, the fact is that I now have access to products that were formerly only available to me in print, and many of the products offered I could never find in stores anyway. This is definitely a good thing, regardless of the smaller issues that revolve around it. And IT'S ONLY BEEN ONE WEEK. Who is to say that publishers will only offer products on DTRPG in the future, or that exclusivity will even be a requirement at the site in 1 year?

* I was a bit pissed off last Sunday that I couldn't access DTRPG and that when I did it was incredibly slow, but those problems are mostly resolved now. Thinking back to the opening of some MMORPGs, I think they did pretty good considering the marketing that went into the opening. New online services will ALWAYS have kinks when they are first introduced, we just have to learn to switch to decaf and relax while the bugs are ironed out.

I think that's everything I had to say.

QUESTION FOR STEVE and/or DTRPG: Any idea what the average queue time is for getting answers to problems reported with the site?

 

[PJ-Mason]

Sure. And the best security types I know are constantly aware of their surroundings. That's something simple the Masters at Arms in the Navy taught me when I was doing security training with them. That and don't put anything on your car that identifies you as being in the military or having been in the military or really announcing any group affiliation. It makes you a much less likely target for any number of things--plus if the bad guys ever do invade, the first ones they're coming for is the people that they know were military (since we're more likely to be able to provide effective resistance). Might as well make them at least do their homework.

That sort of awareness is fine...if your in counter terrorism or border patrol. Or maybe in my area of security, where i work the security division for a local paper factory. If the plant boiler room blows because we aren't paying attention, it'll level the entire plant, a big chunk of highway, and only god knows what to the portion of the Oswego river that runs along the other side of us into Lake Ontario.
If i don't do my job, the company can lose millions to just a mistake, not even necessarily theft. In fact our bosses pretty much IGNORE the petty thefts that we report to them on almost a daily basis, because its just not worth the hassle to roust the ire of their union by going after them. Its just cheaper to ignore the small stuff and keep their eye on the big picture. Making paper. Its ironic that someone that works in a paper mill likes pdfs better than print books, eh?

Of course, if you knew what i knew about what ends up in those pulp pits and the paper presses, you might not want to be touching those books either!

But what we are talking about in this thread is a different universe than any of that type of stuff.

What this DRM business says to me is that the companies don't trust their customers. Or distrust a VERY SMALL portion of us SO much that they are willing to slap all us down to get at them. Its a little harsh maybe, but thats how i see it. Not that i truly take it personally, i'm in security, you've never seen such a paranoid group. This DRM stuff is small fry compared to what security companies would do to the world if they could get away with it. But then I'm an aberration amongst my security brethren. I'm pragmatic, not paranoid

The fact that many publishers are saying "Hey trust us. We're not bad guys!" while at the same time saying (with their actions if not words) "Well, we don't trust you to be honest with our products, so we gotta do DRM" seems little funny to me.

Am i boycotting? Yes, its just the principle though, nothing personal. Just something i think is right to do.

Edited for your spelling pleasure