Dropping a summon bomb in a room from outside.
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
RainOfSteel
Explorer
I'd run it this way:
When the summoned creature appears: all those that the caster has a line of effect to, has identified (with a Spot roll, etc.), and knows and considers friendly are allies; all those that the caster either doesn't know, hasn't identified, or considers enemies are opponents.
If the summoned creature were cast into a room through an open door, and the door slammed shut, the summoned creature would attack anyone in the room who didn't qualify as an ally as noted above (unless the caster knows the summoned creature's language and it is ordered to do something else).
Doing otherwise turns summon monsters into a mass hostility detector (the above runs off what the caster knows at the time of casting). This can be allowed (but I wouldn't).
When the summoned creature appears: all those that the caster has a line of effect to, has identified (with a Spot roll, etc.), and knows and considers friendly are allies; all those that the caster either doesn't know, hasn't identified, or considers enemies are opponents.
If the summoned creature were cast into a room through an open door, and the door slammed shut, the summoned creature would attack anyone in the room who didn't qualify as an ally as noted above (unless the caster knows the summoned creature's language and it is ordered to do something else).
Doing otherwise turns summon monsters into a mass hostility detector (the above runs off what the caster knows at the time of casting). This can be allowed (but I wouldn't).
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Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Which really gets noone anywhere. It becomes very very difficult to distinguish 'cheesy rules-mongering' from 'effective use of resources', without the DM letting his personal views on a specific player weigh in. Far better to (when it's as easy as this particular question) just reason out how it actually works. The selection of spells which target only allies or enemies is a wide one, and it behooves us to know how those spells function on people who are neither enemy nor ally.haiiro said:Well, I wouldn't let that fly IMC. I agree allowing the summons to act on intent creates a potential sticky wicket, but that's why there's a DM: to interpret the difference between "in the spirit of the spell description" and "cheesy rules-mongering."
Either the spell can automatically classify [an individual] as [an] enemy unless the caster otherwise states, or the spell can automatically classify [an individual] as [an] ally, or it can do nothing.
Either the classification [of enemy and ally] remains for the duration of the spell, or it can be adjusted each round as a free action on the caster's turn, or it adjusts as a reaction [no action at all, but still based on the wishes of the caster].
Pick settings that you're comfortable with in the campaign, and you're no longer having to make that fine judgement about what is cheese and what is just letting the player use a spell.
edit - added everything in square brackets
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haiiro
First Post
Saeviomagy said:
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're getting at -- neither of these covers the "send the summon into that tavern and see if anyone in there is our enemy" scenario, as far as I can tell. IMO, they also don't really fit the spell itself. The second set, in particular, looks more like an add-on to clarify the part of the spell description that bothers you.
Not attacking you, I just don't see how these two sentences tie into the rest of your post (the part I do think I understand).
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
haiiro said:Not attacking you, I just don't see how these two sentences tie into the rest of your post (the part I do think I understand).
Well - basically implementing one of those solves the problem.
Either
a) You cast the spell, summoning a celestial eagle. Since you haven't mentally designated anyone in the tavern as an enemy, it sits on your shoulder (or wherever) and does nothing.
b) You cast the spell, summoning a celestial eagle. Since you haven't mentally designated anyone in the tavern as an ally, it immediately attacks the closest tavern-goer.
In neither case does it act as an enemy detector. In neither case does the GM need to make decisions about what's 'cheesy' and whats not.
The last paragraph:
Suppose we go with the first scenario, and we summon an eagle, and it attacks noone.
Suppose someone then decides to pull out a dagger and stab you. He gets a surprise round.
Either
a) The guy stabs you, but the eagle STILL doesn't see him as an enemy.
b) The guy pulls out a knife and you recognise him as an enemy - the eagle straightaway realises he's an enemy.
c) You recognise him as an enemy, but the eagle won't recognise him as an enemy until you take a free action to tell it that he is - the eagle won't attack him until after your next turn.
Note that the difference between B and C is minor, but important if we're talking about something like prayer - in that case the negatives from prayer would apply to his initial attack in case B, but not in case C or A.
Line of Effect
Hypersmurf said:
"That's right.
However:
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.
So yes, even if you can't see the area, you can summon a monster into it - for example, "20 feet inside the edge of that completely opaque mist".
But you must have line of effect to the space in which you wish to create an effect, such as 'one or more summoned creatures'."
I respectfully disagree Hypersmurf...Since Line of Effect is like line of sight for shooting a ranged weapon, there is no way to shoot an arrow (barring some special ability) at an enemy on the other side of the door. My definition of solid barrier is (and WotC definition as well) is anything that blocks a path such as a door, a closed window, etc. Regardless of whether there are gaps in the bottom or the top of the door it is still a barrier. A spell can not be cast through it to the other side because a)there is no line of sight and b) there is no line of effect due to the door. Another example is if a spellcaster was outside and had a wall of force between him and an enemy. Although there is not ceiling (since the wall of force is cast vertically) and there is lots of open space above the combat there is no way to have line of effect to the other side of the wall. Therefore nothing can be cast on the other side as you need to have line of effect from your hand to the point of origin of the summon spell. Furthermore, a wizard in Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is unable to cast spells out of the sphere as the line of effect is blocked even though he can view outside the sphere. The wizard can still cast anything inside (such as healing spells if he had access to them) but otherwise all offensive spells are useless.
Line of effect is a very important game mechanic that can limit spells so that wizards aren't all powerful.
For what it's worth I have contacted WotC to verify my argument and logic and their game support people concurred.
Hypersmurf said:
"That's right.
However:
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.
So yes, even if you can't see the area, you can summon a monster into it - for example, "20 feet inside the edge of that completely opaque mist".
But you must have line of effect to the space in which you wish to create an effect, such as 'one or more summoned creatures'."
I respectfully disagree Hypersmurf...Since Line of Effect is like line of sight for shooting a ranged weapon, there is no way to shoot an arrow (barring some special ability) at an enemy on the other side of the door. My definition of solid barrier is (and WotC definition as well) is anything that blocks a path such as a door, a closed window, etc. Regardless of whether there are gaps in the bottom or the top of the door it is still a barrier. A spell can not be cast through it to the other side because a)there is no line of sight and b) there is no line of effect due to the door. Another example is if a spellcaster was outside and had a wall of force between him and an enemy. Although there is not ceiling (since the wall of force is cast vertically) and there is lots of open space above the combat there is no way to have line of effect to the other side of the wall. Therefore nothing can be cast on the other side as you need to have line of effect from your hand to the point of origin of the summon spell. Furthermore, a wizard in Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is unable to cast spells out of the sphere as the line of effect is blocked even though he can view outside the sphere. The wizard can still cast anything inside (such as healing spells if he had access to them) but otherwise all offensive spells are useless.
Line of effect is a very important game mechanic that can limit spells so that wizards aren't all powerful.
For what it's worth I have contacted WotC to verify my argument and logic and their game support people concurred.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Markn said:
Line of sight is irrelevant for an Effect spell. Line of effect is what's important.
If it's a solid door - absolutely, you can't cast Summon Monster through it.
If it's an open door, but you can't see through it (thick fog, for example), you can cast Summon Monster through it.
If it's an otherwise solid door with a 1-square-foot hole in it, you can cast Summon Monster through it, because the door no longer blocks line of effect. 3.5 PHB p176, top of the second column.
-Hyp.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
This is how I've always run it.Saeviomagy said:
Basically, the summoned creatures act on the caster's knowledge. Since the caster always knows who his allies are, so do the summoned creatures. But if you summon something into a room without going into the room, you have no way of knowing whether anything is in the room, or whether whatever's there is your enemy. Until you do, neither do the summoned critters.
