Dropping Quicken Spell to +3 spell level

[shilsen]

With haste not providing an extra spell per round in 3.5 (a good change, IMO), I wanted to provide spellcasters with an opportunity to cast two spells a level without having to use a spell slot 4 levels higher (as Quicken requires). So
I've house-ruled Quicken Spell to require a slot three levels higher than that of the original spell. None of the PCs (7th lvl) are high enough to take advantage of it yet and frankly none of them seem about to do so until much higher in level, since they figure the cost is still quite abortive.

So I was just curious if anyone has made a similar change, and whether the results have been as they desired or not. Also, for those of you who haven't actually made such a change, do you think it's a bad idea? Why? Thanks in advance.

 

[TiQuinn]

I've thought about the same change myself. On the one hand, it's quite a bit more powerful than Maximize spell. You can cast a Maximized Fireball, and deal full damage, or cast two Quickened Fireballs, and potentially get more or less damage than the maximized spell. However, when you throw in seperate saves for each fireball, I think Quicken comes out ahead. And that's not even considering the flexibility of casting two different spells. So it would seem to me that Quicken would require a higher cost than Maximize.....

....however, 4 slots IS awfully high, IMO. Games that I've run have very rarely made it high enough where players would consider using Quicken spells. I think that if you want to increase the power curve a bit, go for it. It may mean that Maximize Spell seems like a weak choice in comparison, but I don't see it being a huge deal.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

The only character i had who used quicken spell was a one shot type druid whose wisdom actually wasn't high enough to cast her really hiogh level spells, so she quickened some lower ones up to not waste the spell slots... Its overpriced IMHO, and even +3 seems a lot... Has anyone tested out lowering the level adjustment but making it a move rather than free action? does that have any ballancing effect?

Kahuna burger

 

[Scion]

I have been toying with knocking it down to +2 myself. But then I have also been toying with changing a lot of the metamagic feats as most of them just arent worth the slots it takes to get there.

Feat requirement + higher slot + no benefit from being in a higher slot generally equates to bad. Especially since you could do some research and learn the new spell as though it was useing the metamagic but have a better save and be a higher level for penetrating things like globes.

Just off the top of my head though making it +2 and having it use both your free action and move equivalent action in a round would make it at least interesting. Possibly move equivalent one round and your free action the next, making it slightly wind you or something.

All in all, something has to be done. +4 is just too much. I doubt many characters out there even ever use it until levels 18+ anyway. Not much point in even printing something that isnt even used until epic levels. (except in the appropriate book of course)

 

[shilsen]

Thanks for the opinions. I personally feel it is a little too powerful to allow at +2 levels, but one could probably do something with the "use up a move action" option Kahuna Burger and Scion mentioned.

Which raises another question for me. Quicken spell allows Clr, Drd, and Wiz characters to get two spells off in a round, even if at a cost. But the Brd and the Sor can't go above one in 3.5. So does making Quicken Spell easier to get automatically strengthen the previous three classes and weaken the spontaneous casters?

 

[LightPhoenix]

Which raises another question for me. Quicken spell allows Clr, Drd, and Wiz characters to get two spells off in a round, even if at a cost. But the Brd and the Sor can't go above one in 3.5. So does making Quicken Spell easier to get automatically strengthen the previous three classes and weaken the spontaneous casters?

It would in theory strengthen certain Clr/Drd/Wiz builds, but I don't think the effect would be all that great IMO. You're still using up spell slots to cast those quickened spells.

But you wouldn't be weakening spontaneous casters, because they can't use Quicken Spell anyway. They'd remain at the same power level, you'd just be widening the gap between them and the preparing casters.

To chime in late, I agree Quicken is too weak at +4 levels, especially given the non-linear progression of the power of each spell level.

 

[Spatzimaus]

It's not just that it's +4 levels; it's a HUGE force multiplier. Without Quicken, you get one spell per round. With Quicken, you get two. Sure, the second one is low in level (read: Magic Missile), but it's still a big change.

There's just nothing to bridge the gap. You could make a Feat that let you cast the extra spell this round, at the cost of a standard action next round (just like Reactive Counterspell, which'd probably be a prerequisite). Or, you could make one that reduces the casting time to a move-equivalent action (which'd still allow you two spells in a round, but in a more limited way). Or maybe you'd make a version of Quicken that can explicitly only be used on one spell per day, or that caused you to automatically fail any Concentration checks made in the current round.

If any one of these concepts was introduced as a +2-cost metamagic, the existing, "flawless" Quicken would be just fine at +4, because someone who wanted an extra spell and could accept some drawbacks would take one of the lower versions. But right now it's all-or-nothing, so +4 seems too steep.

Oh, and of course, Quicken-type feats should explicitly override the standard "increases casting time" rule for spontaneous casters. IMC we added a +1-level metamagic that returns full-round action casting times back to their original standard action.

 

[FireLance]

If you introduce a feat to reduce casting times to a move action (say, at +2), beware the machine spellgunner who can fire off a spell as a standard action, another (at +2) as a move action and a third (at +4) as a free (or swift, if you use MH) action.

Such a feat should either replace Quicken or reduce spellcasting times (full-round to standard, standard to move) with the proviso that the caster cannot use his other action to cast a spell. Quicken is still the only way to get a second spell in a round.

 

[Scion]

I forget, do spells cast as a free action eliminate arcane spell failure? All components? or do they still have all regular limitations? somehow I am thinking they still have all limitations.

Thinking as such a feat that only cost either +1 or +2, made the spell a free action, but stipulated that you could only cast one spell in that round wouldnt be so bad. Even at +1 it might still be ok, since you still have all of the regular restrictions. It might even make some pretty wacky, though not terribly overpowered, builds possible.

Of course there may be abuses, and there always are, but currently the +4 is just asking too much.

 

[Mordane76]

I forget, do spells cast as a free action eliminate arcane spell failure? All components? or do they still have all regular limitations? somehow I am thinking they still have all limitations.

Thinking as such a feat that only cost either +1 or +2, made the spell a free action, but stipulated that you could only cast one spell in that round wouldnt be so bad. Even at +1 it might still be ok, since you still have all of the regular restrictions. It might even make some pretty wacky, though not terribly overpowered, builds possible.

Of course there may be abuses, and there always are, but currently the +4 is just asking too much.

Quicken doesn't get rid of any other requirements, just reduces the casting of that spell to a free action. You still need components, and can still fail due to ASF chances if applicable. The spell can still be subject to Spellcraft, and possibly Reactive Counterspelling, if my understanding of that feat is correct.

In the end, I think Quicken is right were it should be. Someone with 5th level slots (enough to Quicken a magic missile) gets a lot of bang for that buck when they use it, and someone with 7th level slots (enough to quicken that fireball) gets an awful amount of bang out of it. Even non-direct damage spells can be incredibly useful as Quickened spells, like hold person or even silence or blindness/deafness; a utility or secondary damaging spell used with Quicken Spell can easily mean the difference between victory and defeat in an encounter.