D&D 5E Dropping to 0 HP - House Rule Variant

[FrogReaver]

If that is your sincere position then, yeah. EVERYTHING is Death Spirally if it does anything whatsoever to impact a player character in a manner that reduces their effectiveness rather than just their HP.

I think your comment here is overly broad. If something like a hold person spell disables you that isn't a death spirally mechanic because being closer to death isn't making you more likely to die. But if someone attacking you and hitting you makes you less able to fight back or defend simply as an effect of them hitting you - then that's a death spiral.

Some death spirals are also worse than others.

Bestow Curse is a Death Spiral spell.

Darkness is a Death Spiral spell.

Rain and Weather Effects are Death Spirally if they apply disadvantage to attacks.

This definition is so broad and vague as to be essentially meaningless, in my opinion. Enjoy your game how you like it. I'll still suggest that getting to 0hp have some kind of actual meaning both narratively and in game terms and presume that the OP has a somewhat reasonable definition of the term "Death Spiral"

Maybe don't argue against positions I'm not taking?

 

[FrogReaver]

As the poster above pointed out, you keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

And as pointed out below, your definition of the phrase is so broad as to be meaningless.

Taking a position I'm not taking and showing that's meaningless isn't the same as showing my position is meaningless.

 

[Steampunkette]

I think your comment here is overly broad. If something like a hold person spell disables you that isn't a death spirally mechanic because being closer to death isn't making you more likely to die. But if someone attacking you and hitting you makes you less able to fight back or defend simply as an effect of them hitting you - then that's a death spiral.

Some death spirals are also worse than others.


Maybe don't argue against positions I'm not taking?

I -explicitly- asked you for your particular definition of a Death Spiral. You neglected to provide a specific one, and instead insisted that things which happen at 0HP that make it harder for you to fight (which is to say -any- sort of penalty) is a death spiral mechanic.

Implying that ANYTHING which impinges on a player's ability to fight is a death spiral mechanic, except Death itself.

Your own System of dealing with people at 0hp removes any sort of penalty for hitting 0hp whatsoever. You're just as capable of fighting as you are at 100hp. The only difference is you make a bunch of individual saves to not die. And if you make 3, you're still standing up and fighting indefinitely.

Meaning hitting 0hp has no actual -functional- result.

You then list out the -actual- definition of a Death Spiral in this post. Which does not represent the position that you've presented thus far.

But here's the big thing about that Death Spiral: It refers to EVERY HIT the player takes. Ever play V:tM? Your wounds apply constant and increasing penalties to what you can do, making it harder and harder to fight until you drop. That's what a Death Spiral is. And you hit the nail on the head with your definition of it, here!

But taking ALL OF YOUR HIT POINTS in damage and -THEN- gaining a penalty is not a death spiral. It's -massively- more gentle. Not as feather-light as your particular touch... But it's not a death spiral.

 

[FrogReaver]

I -explicitly- asked you for your particular definition of a Death Spiral. You neglected to provide a specific one, and instead insisted that things which happen at 0HP that make it harder for you to fight (which is to say -any- sort of penalty) is a death spiral mechanic.

Implying that ANYTHING which impinges on a player's ability to fight is a death spiral mechanic, except Death itself.

That's not an implication of that statement. I already explained why. I don't see a reason to just repeat myself.

Your own System of dealing with people at 0hp removes any sort of penalty for hitting 0hp whatsoever. You're just as capable of fighting as you are at 100hp. The only difference is you make a bunch of individual saves to not die. And if you make 3, you're still standing up and fighting indefinitely.

Meaning hitting 0hp has no actual -functional- result.

The functional 'penalty' for hitting 0 is:
1. You start to take death saves when hit
2. You gain a level of exhaustion after the encounter

You then list out the -actual- definition of a Death Spiral in this post. Which does not represent the position that you've presented thus far.

It really does represent my position. What it doesn't represent is your mischaracterization of my position.

But here's the big thing about that Death Spiral: It refers to EVERY HIT the player takes. Ever play V:tM? Your wounds apply constant and increasing penalties to what you can do, making it harder and harder to fight until you drop. That's what a Death Spiral is. And you hit the nail on the head with your definition of it, here!

That's not the only way for something to be a death spiral. If such a mechanic kicked in at half hp or 1/4 hp it would still be a death spiral mechanic. There's no reason the same doesn't apply to 0 hp.

But taking ALL OF YOUR HIT POINTS in damage and -THEN- gaining a penalty is not a death spiral. It's -massively- more gentle. Not as feather-light as your particular touch... But it's not a death spiral.

I see no logically consistent reason it wouldn't be.

 

[Steampunkette]

That's not an implication of that statement. I already explained why. I don't see a reason to just repeat myself.


The functional 'penalty' for hitting 0 is:
1. You start to take death saves when hit
2. You gain a level of exhaustion after the encounter


It really does represent my position. What it doesn't represent is your mischaracterization of my position.


That's not the only way for something to be a death spiral. If such a mechanic kicked in at half hp or 1/4 hp it would still be a death spiral mechanic. There's no reason the same doesn't apply to 0 hp.


I see no logically consistent reason it wouldn't be.

The logically consistent reason is why we have different degrees in a slope.

Not every hillside is a Cliff. And while you could certainly argue whether a 90 degree angle or greater is required for something to be a cliff, a 20 degree angle decline is not a cliff.

In a "Death at 0" situation you're walking on a perfectly flat grade toward a cliff about 100yds away, and then you just walk off the edge. (Death at -10 and Death at 3 failed saves is the same, you're just holding onto the edge of the cliff for a little while before you fall and someone could kick your hand or pull you up)

In yours, you're walking that perfectly flat grade toward the cliff, walking right off of it, and hovering in mid-air like Wile E. Coyote before either you scrabble back onto solid ground or look down and start falling.

In a Death Spiral situation (When every hit pushes you closer to that cliff) you're moving down a hill on a steadily increasing angle toward a cliff. Usually there's no way to back away from the cliff's edge, and everything you do after a certain point just brings you closer to the edge.

In an "Exhaustion when you've been downed" situation you're walking along a perfectly flat grade for about 100 yards toward the cliff. But you can either leap off (Failed saves) or take the stairs (Exhaustion) in order to walk farther toward or away from that cliff.

For a visual Illustration:

Walking off the cliff toward the camera would be Death at 0. You might grab on, you might not. Even if you do, you could still fall.

Walking off the cliff toward the left would be a Death Spiral. Even if you try to hold on, you're just gonna keep sliding.

Walking off the cliff toward the camera and landing on a lower rock formation would be Exhaustion on Defeat. You might be able to pull yourself up, but you're probably gonna fall further unless you focus on climbing up.

 

[FrogReaver]

The logically consistent reason is why we have different degrees in a slope.

Not every hillside is a Cliff. And while you could certainly argue whether a 90 degree angle or greater is required for something to be a cliff, a 20 degree angle decline is not a cliff.

In a "Death at 0" situation you're walking on a perfectly flat grade toward a cliff about 100yds away, and then you just walk off the edge. (Death at -10 and Death at 3 failed saves is the same, you're just holding onto the edge of the cliff for a little while before you fall and someone could kick your hand or pull you up)

It depends on what else that being in the state of making death saves entails.

In yours, you're walking that perfectly flat grade toward the cliff, walking right off of it, and hovering in mid-air like Wile E. Coyote before either you scrabble back onto solid ground or look down and start falling.

You always try to pick the whatever analogy paints my position in the worst light, when there are much better ones that don't do that.

My position isn't really like Coyote hovering off the edge of the cliff before dropping - at least not anymore than being at 1hp in a death at 0 hp game could be described in a similar light.

In a Death Spiral situation (When every hit pushes you closer to that cliff) you're moving down a hill on a steadily increasing angle toward a cliff. Usually there's no way to back away from the cliff's edge, and everything you do after a certain point just brings you closer to the edge.

IMO, just because negative effects happens at discrete breakpoints instead of being continuous doesn't change anything IMO.

Which does seem to be the crux of the disagreement - that you refuse to call something a death spiral mechanic even when it makes your character worse at fighting as the direct result of a hit with no property other than damage landing on you.

In an "Exhaustion when you've been downed" situation you're walking along a perfectly flat grade for about 100 yards toward the cliff. But you can either leap off (Failed saves) or take the stairs (Exhaustion) in order to walk farther toward or away from that cliff.

Being downed is not death though. I fully agree it's not a being downed spiral. It's a being downed cliff. I would say that a 'being down cliff' can be part of a death spiral.

Walking off the cliff toward the camera would be Death at 0. You might grab on, you might not. Even if you do, you could still fall.

If there's something which prevents you from dying at 0 then it's not really death at 0...

Walking off the cliff toward the left would be a Death Spiral. Even if you try to hold on, you're just gonna keep sliding.

Death spirals occur when as a result of effects dealing nothing more than damage your character becomes worse at fighting. So IMO, it really depends on what mechanical consequences 'holding on' entails in this scenario.

Walking off the cliff toward the camera and landing on a lower rock formation would be Exhaustion on Defeat. You might be able to pull yourself up, but you're probably gonna fall further unless you focus on climbing up.

Just because the death spiral takes the shape of a staircase with discrete steps doesn't make it something other than a death sprial.

 

[OB1]

Liking the suggestion to make it less fiddly by just having the period of unconciousness be 10 minutes regardless of the death saves. On the fence about lesser restoration, doesn't feel like quite enough of a cost. Appreciate all the feedback!

 

[Steampunkette]

It depends on what else that being in the state of making death saves entails.


You always try to pick the whatever analogy paints my position in the worst light, when there are much better ones that don't do that.

My position isn't really like Coyote hovering off the edge of the cliff before dropping - at least not anymore than being at 1hp in a death at 0 hp game could be described in a similar light.


IMO, just because negative effects happens at discrete breakpoints instead of being continuous doesn't change anything IMO.

Which does seem to be the crux of the disagreement - that you refuse to call something a death spiral mechanic even when it makes your character worse at fighting as the direct result of a hit with no property other than damage landing on you.


Being downed is not death though. I fully agree it's not a being downed spiral. It's a being downed cliff. I would say that a 'being down cliff' can be part of a death spiral.


If there's something which prevents you from dying at 0 then it's not really death at 0...


Death spirals occur when as a result of effects dealing nothing more than damage your character becomes worse at fighting. So IMO, it really depends on what mechanical consequences 'holding on' entails in this scenario.


Just because the death spiral takes the shape of a staircase with discrete steps doesn't make it something other than a death sprial.

In your system the Coyote hovers 'cause he can still do WHATEVER while waiting to fall. Including popping a healing potion, casting a healing spell on himself, or otherwise ignoring the fact that he's on death's doorstep. And if someone DOES try to put him down, he can roll a Con Save to avoid dropping.

In other systems the character can do nothing but cling to the edge before falling or being dragged up by others.

And if you can't see the difference between these two slopes:

I sincerely don't know how to have a conversation with you about rise over run.

Again, I say that your definition of "Death Spiral" is so broad as to be utterly meaningless. And I will continue to assume that the OP has a more reasonable understanding of the phrase.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Goal: Provide a disincentive to players to allow themselves to drop to 0 HP that doesn't result in a death spiral or 5MWD. Encourage players to avoid unnecessary combat and retreat from combats going poorly to regroup and attempt another direction to achieve their goal. Increase the drama and tension of decision making in a difficult combat that the players don't want to retreat from.

Proposed House Rule:

• When you drop to 0 HP, you fall unconscious and begin making death saving throws as normal.
• Whenever you regain HP from 0 the following happens:
  • 0 Failed Death Saving Throws - You regain HP, but don't regain consciousness for 1 minute
  • 1 Failed Death Saving Throw - You regain HP, but don't regain consciousness for 10 minutes
  • 2 Failed Death Saving Throws - You regain HP, but don't regain consciousness for 1 hour (this time period does not count as a short rest)

Thoughts?

I don't think it succeeds in the stated goal of better avoiding the death spiral. Losing 20% to 25 % of your party effectiveness when one drops is the death spiral. This makes it harder to recover that loss.

 

[FrogReaver]

In your system the Coyote hovers 'cause he can still do WHATEVER while waiting to fall. Including popping a healing potion, casting a healing spell on himself, or otherwise ignoring the fact that he's on death's doorstep. And if someone DOES try to put him down, he can roll a Con Save to avoid dropping.

That's not meaningfully different than being at 1 hp and waiting to be at 0 hp in a death at 0hp game

In other systems the character can do nothing but cling to the edge before falling or being dragged up by others.

And if you can't see the difference between these two slopes:

I sincerely don't know how to have a conversation with you about rise over run.

Maybe don't assume those you talk to are such idiots they don't understand rise over run?

I don't know how else to say this: if the slope is representing your ability at fighting based on the damage/hits you are taking then the steepness of the slope isn't what makes something a death spiral - it's the existence of the slope at all.

Again, I say that your definition of "Death Spiral" is so broad as to be utterly meaningless. And I will continue to assume that the OP has a more reasonable understanding of the phrase.

I've demonstrated that my position doesn't do what you claim. You keep mischaracterizing my position anyways. So believe what you want.