D&D General Drow in early D&D

[Sithlord]

I think they went wrong with elves when they stopped being those whimsical fairies with a sense of irony that lived in tree houses. Imho only.

 

[Yaarel]

I think they went wrong with elves when they stopped being those whimsical fairies with a sense of irony that lived in tree houses. Imho only.

Those are my High Elf.

Albeit, my High Elf are probably a bit too military to be whimsical. I will try working on that, to play up the Eldritch Knights and Bladesingers go crazy when they are on leave from duty.

 

[Yaarel]

According to the 3e Forgotten Realms setting, both the Drow Elf and the Sun Elf are racist.

However, the Drow Elf are classified as "Evil", thus in a way have a free pass to be jerks.

The problem is, the Sun Elf are classified as "Good", thus being racist and Good at the same time makes everything weird.

There has to be a way for a culture to value their own culture, without needing to despise or be "haughty" against other cultures.

 

[Sithlord]

Those are my High Elf.

Albeit, my High Elf are probably a bit too military to be whimsical. I will try working on that, to play up the Eldritch Knights and Bladesingers go crazy when they are on leave from duty.

I like my elves very faerie. They never age. And they don’t have kingdoms and cities on the map. It’s tricky getting to them if you are mortal or don’t have fae blood of some kind.
I also like race as class for nonhumans because it is easier to design them and make rules for them to be very not human. Imho

the way many elves are being written they should throw out chaotic good and make them any lawful.

 

[Alzrius]

The problem is, the Sun Elf are classified as "Good", thus being racist and Good at the same time makes everything weird.

Quick sidebar: where are sun elves, specifically, classified as being good-aligned? I flipped their through entry in the FR 3E Campaign Setting, and didn't notice anything about alignment there. The 3E portion of their wiki entry (on the sidebar) said that they're LG, NG, CG, and N, but referred back to the FR3ECS and the 3.5 PHB.

(I'm not sure I saw where it described them as being "racist" either, now that I think about it.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Like I suspect a lot of newer players wouldn't have really heard of Mystara's shadow elves, for example.

I love Mystara, but the Shadow Elves are basically any number of 1960s/1970s sci-fi living-underground-after-the-apocalypse races and aren't terribly interesting unless they're your only exposure to such groups.

 

[Yaarel]

Quick sidebar: where are sun elves, specifically, classified as being good-aligned? I flipped their through entry in the FR 3E Campaign Setting, and didn't notice anything about alignment there. The 3E portion of their wiki entry (on the sidebar) said that they're LG, NG, CG, and N, but referred back to the FR3ECS and the 3.5 PHB.

(I'm not sure I saw where it described them as being "racist" either, now that I think about it.)

The "racist" part is the sentence quoted earlier from the 3e FR Campaign Setting:

"Sun Elves ... are seen as the most civilized and haughty elves, preferring to remain separate from humankind and other nonelven races."

The Sun Elves are literally racist separatists, and racist supremacists, elevating the "Elf race" and being "haughty" against every other race.



The being "Good" is a fair question. Generally, according to the 3e Players Handbook, all Elves are Chaotic Good, except for Drow who are Chaotic Evil.

3e PH: "Elves. Alignment. ... Elves love freedom, ... and are more often Good than not."

In FR too, "Sun Elves have all the elven racial traits listed on page 16 of the Players Handbook, except as follows. +2 Intelligence," etcetera.

Thus Sun Elves associate with the same Elf that loves freedom and is assumed to be Good.



Wow! Even the 3e Players Handbook says all Elves are "haughty". "Elves. Relations. Elves ... look on Half-Elves with some degree of pity. ... While haughty, ... they are generally pleasant."



So, according to 3e Greyhawk core and 3e Forgotten Realms, the Elf is officially a polite racist supremacist ... and is Good.

Unbelievable!

No wonder the Elf got so messed up.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The differences were not that much. In fact, FR expanded a lot on what Greyhawk had already established. In Greyhawk, however, while most drows are worshipping Llolth and fear her wrath, some are just pretenders and worship the Elder Elemental Eye (aka Tharzidun) and seek to over throw her hold on drow society but not out of goodness but for their own gain.

Greyhawk drow would do very bad things to anyone calling Lolth "Lloth."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

She's not. It's established in D3 that the Drow worship demon lords; the worship of Lolth is but one example of such. However, this has largely been tossed aside is the years that followed.

I've always wondered why we didn't see overt connections between Graz'zt and the Greyhawk drow. It would not be hard to argue that the drow were reshaped in his image, for instance. (In the real world, of course, he's the dark man of the Salem witch trials, but that's not necessarily a thing in D&D.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Maybe the arrogant elves trope never came from game designers, but from the people playing the elves?

The 2E Complete Book of Elves definitely radiates the "if you're not playing an elf, what are you even doing playing D&D" vibe. It's a widely despised book, but it was also wildly popular during that era.