D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Maxperson]

So, let us ask you - Do you think that nobody gets ideas from books they read? Do books have no lasting impact on culture? No work of fiction has ever inspired real-world choices or actions?

I think inspiration is different from having a fantasy about something.

 

[Maxperson]

D&D is pop culture AND nerdspace, with a slight lean towards nerdspace. Pathfinder is nerdspace.

Just imagine the most average guy imaginable at the pub, and evaluate what are the odds he's heard of a specific topic. If you're like "There's almost no way he's heard of this", and it's a nerd topic, it's in nerdspace.

Like, I expect the average 25 year old athlete to have probably heard of or watched DBZ, or Attack on Titan, or a Jojo's, or something like that. That's some crossover nerd material. If they have a Crunchyroll account so they can watch isekais, then they're probably just an athletic nerd (like a Tim Duncan).

I think you are underestimating the prevalence of anime in the lives of young people. Look at Hulu, Netflix, etc. They have a TON of anime shows, including shows that I would have expected not to find off of Crunchyroll. I think your average 25 year old athlete would know more anime shows than just DBZ or the other bigger ones.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Aren't the drow a myth? Gygax said so, anyway.

 

[Parmandur]

It seems like minotaurs may also be getting the monstrosity/humanoid treatment in a future supplement, as the only one provided in the 2025 MM is the "Minotaur of Baphomet," and the text states that "While most minotaurs live free of the demon lord's bonds, those that serve him become minotaurs of Baphomet." Sort of like how they treated lizardfolk, although the minotaur entry doesn't expressly stipulate that common minotaurs are Humanoid.

They already did, per the flavor text for Minktaurs in Monsters of the Multiverse, which is still a current book.

 

[Parmandur]

That is certainly true. In these cases, I've been told we're free to continue using everything from the 2014 version of 5th edition, and therefore that makes it all backward compatible.

Yes, it all still works, hence compatible.

 

[Hussar]

What I find rather ironic about all this about removing various humanoid stat blocks from the Monster Manual is that this isn't actually anything new. Humanoids having distinct stat blocks is more a 4e thing than anything else.

Go back to AD&D, there is virtually zero difference between the stat block for an orc, a goblin, a human or a dwarf. Maybe a single HP? Same AC, same movement, same everything. Infravision I suppose might distinguish one from another. And, EVERY humanoid stat block told you to use a larger humanoid stat block for leaders and the like. There was no Eye of Gruumsh orc. A leader orc was a hobgoblin in drag. An orc chief was possibly an ogre in drag. For all of AD&D, humanoid stat blocks were interchangeable.

Then came 3e. And it was the same. There was no "humanoid" stat block. Orcs were lvl 1 warriors. The only thing that distinguished an orc from a dwarf was putting in some different stats. IOW, a strong dwarf and an orc were identical. You wanted a stronger orc? You added class levels (or NPC class levels) to the stat block. Exactly how you got a stronger dwarf, elf or any other humanoid.

It wasn't until 4e that you actually had different stat blocks for individual humanoids. And, AIR, people hated it. The idea that you could have minion orcs and regular orcs and orcs that were stronger than trolls was ridiculed.

5e then managed to fly that same idea under the radar. I always love how Wotc managed to thread the needle of recycling 4e rules while convincing everyone that these were actually the way things were in the past. It's fascinating.

But 2024 removing humanoid stat blocks in favor of templates? That's how D&D has almost always worked except in recent years. This isn't new. Like, not new at all. This is as old as it gets. This goes right back to the origins of the game.

 

[Deset Gled]

Aren't the drow a myth? Gygax said so, anyway.

 

[Umbran]

I think inspiration is different from having a fantasy about something.

Having a fantasy about something is your fixation, not mine.

Normalizing and inspiring bad behavior still leads to bad outcomes, even if it isn't specifically enacting a fantasy.

This is not to say all media must always be squeaky clean, but it does mean that people who create content have to make choices, to choose their impacts. And it should be seen as okay for them to do so.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ah, but you see, actually debating the premise is not required. Because this is ultimately not about the absolute truth value of the premise. This is about working with people.



If you are not ready to compromise, then the other guy has no reason to give you anything you want.

Okay. So what are you willing to compromise in this discussion?

 

[Maxperson]

Having a fantasy about something is your fixation, not mine.

Normalizing and inspiring bad behavior still leads to bad outcomes, even if it isn't specifically enacting a fantasy.

40+ years of D&D play. Hundreds of people played with, and I have yet to see anyone normalize bad behavior in the real world because of D&D lore, or be inspired by D&D lore to engage in bad behavior in the real world.

This doesn't seem like a common or even uncommon problem. It seems quite rare. Rare enough to be a people problem and not a game problem.