Dual and Multiclass Level cap problems.

[Destil]

Well, let's look at an example. 11th Wiz / 9th Fighter, 32 Point Buy Dwarf. NPC Wealth (220,000GP)

14 Str, 12 Dex, 18 Con, 16 Int, 10 Wis, 6 Cha initial +2 Str, +1 Con, +2 Int over 20 levels.
16 Str, 14 Dex, 19 Con, 20 Int, 10 Wis, 6 Cha (items)
19-22 Str, 14 Dex, 22-26 Con, 20 Int, 10 Wis, 6 Cha (Empowered Bull's Strength & Endurance)

BAB = +14/+9/+4
Base Saves = +9 Fort, +6 Ref, +10 Will

5 Bonus Fighter Feats, Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar, 2 Wizard Bonus Feats. 7 Feats for char level
Weapon Focus, Specialization, Improved Critical (Greataxe), Power Attack, Cleave, Scribe Scroll, Extend Spell, Empower Spell, Great Cleave, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Expertise, Sunder, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Lightning Reflexes, Improved Initiative

9d10 + 11d4 + 80 HP

Skill Ranks:
23 Concentration, 23 Spellcraft, 20 Knowledge (Arcana), 23 Craft (weapon smiting), 23 Craft (armor smiting), 15 Scry
Equipment: Spell Storing Greataxe +3 (32000), Ring of Protection +3 (18000), Cloak of Resistance +4 (16000), Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8000), Mighty(+4) Comp Longbow +2(2800), Headband of Intellect +2 (16000), Gloves of Dexterity +2(4000) (12200 GP in Misc. Gear), Spellbook.

Spells Known -
DC 15, Cantrips: All
DC 16, 1st: Shield, Mage Armor, True Strike, Enlarge, Jump, Spider Climb, Expedites Retreat, Magic Missile, Jump, Spider Climb, Charm Person
DC 17, 2nd: Mirror Image, Levitate, Bull's Strength, Endurance, Rope Trick, Invisibility, See Invisible, Resist Elements
DC 18, 3rd: Dispel Magic, Haste, Hold Person, Displacement, Fly, Flame Arrow, Fireball, Suggestion, Blink, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon
DC 19, 4th: Fire Shield, Ice Storm, Polymorph Self, Stone Skin, Charm Monster, Scrying, Evard's Black Tenticles
DC 20, 5th: Dominate Person, Wall of Force, Hold Monster, Prying Eyes, Summon Monster V, Bigby's Interposing Hand
DC 21, 6th: Mass Haste, Tenser's Transformation, Mass Suggestion, True Seeing, Mislead
(Italic Spells have been scribed at a cost of 200 GP / Spell level, for a total of 11,000 GP)

Spells / Day + Bonus:
4 / 4+2 / 4+1 / 3+1 / 2+1 / 1+1
Spells:
0 - Daze, Read Magic, Read Magic, (free)
1st - Shield, Shield, Magic Missile, True Strike, Charm Person, (free)
2nd - Mirror Image, Rope Trick, Mage Armor (Extended), Mage Armor (Extended)
3rd - Dispel Magic, Suggestion, Displacement, Hold Person
4th - Fire Shield, Polymorph Self, Stone Skin
5th - Bull's Strength (Empowered), Endurance (Empowered), Dominate Person
6th- Tenser's Transformation, Mass Haste

This is just one setup. He can vary his spells as much as he likes from day to day. Take some Greater Magic Weapons and he's an Okay Archer. Take lots of buffs and enhance the entire party. Take Fireballs, Ice Storms and Summon Monsters and fill in the role of a weak wizard. He's weak if a Dispel Magic hits him, but the versatility helps make up for this immensely. He can make his own gear, at ½ price (I counted everything as being bought at full price). His con bonus gives him 100 to 180 HP, depending on the roll on the empowered Endurance, and with a toad familiar that's 120-200! Even after you boost the ability scores on the NPC Fighter or Wizard in the DMG to a 32 point buy, this guy is still a valuable asset. His save DC's for his 6th level Mass Suggestions are 23, not bad against a fighter. His first attack is at +22 on an okay bull's strength roll. And this can have true strike + power attack (+6 to hit, +14 damage), which is great when you're only getting one attack anyway. The spell-storing greataxe can hold a Dispel Magic that's cast as a free action on anyone he hits.

The downside to this sort of multiclass is that they're less valuable in a large party, because their self buffs are somewhat redundant… but there's still self only spells like Mirror Image, Shield, Fire Shield, and Tenser's Transformation. Also they're harder to play on a lower point buy. With a 16 point buy you're hurt a bit more for spreading bonuses out among abilities and single-class or multi-class PCs who have ability score overlap (Cleric/Monk, Sorcerer Paladin, Rogue / Wizard) are at an advantage.

 

[demon_jr]

Fighter 11 / Wizard 10 = Character level 21 = Epic.

hmm, that being the case, why doesn't the player in question just make his character:

fighter 20/wizard 20???

unless i misunderstood the original posters question, there's nothing to say that they can't continue getting more levels. if i understand the epic level handbook, the only change would be that the levels after fighter 10/wizard 10 would be epic levels.

does the player in question have a problem with those levels being epic levels?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The way you describe him, he's a whining baby. If you know people with children (or have some yourself), you'll probably know that it's not good to give in only because they cry.

If you give in now, he'll have his +5 Vorpal sword before 5th level.

Leave the multiclass system as it is. The 2e system was ridiculously overpowered, but now you'll actually lose something if you multiclass, whereas in 2e you (almost) only gained. But he won't just lose, either: he'll gain things as well.

And you're the DM, you can compensate the lack of one or more of the four monster basic food groups (warrior, priest, rogue, arcanist).
No priest? Healing potions will be quite a bargain, and for other stuff there's always a temple around, with cut-price offers.
No warrior? The party cleric or rogue will be able to handle the enemies.
No rogue? There won't be that much traps, and the doors which are locked can be broken by spells or brute force, or the key is at hand.
No arcanist? Well, just make sure they enemy won't get out of reach for the melee type, and that they have the proper magic weapon to hit home.

If he wants to be versatile, tell him there's a new class concept: the Bard.

If he still won't be reasonable, pick him off. He'll either give in to play, or in the worst case, you'll have to find another player (you should anyway, with two players that will be pretty hard anyway!). I'd not let them blackmail you, or you end up with the fool's cap, and with a player able to beat the crap out of Larloch, Mordenkainen, Bigby, Tenser, Agannazzar, Elminster and Raistlin at once. At second level or so.

 

[Corwyn]

It is true that multi-classed characters of the kind x/x ,especialy magic users/ non magic users, are 1 -2 El lower in power then a straight character. (of course YMMV)

I'm speaking in global terms of course one could create a character that is multi-classed that is as powerfull as a straight characters. So if the entire pary would multi-class then the entire party's EL power will probably be lower. And a DM should take that into considderation.

 

[Happiest_Sadist]

This is what I'd tell him. If you are that concerned about multiclass charachters being weaker than single classed and I havn't been able to convince you that can be very wrong, then play a single classed charachter and stop whining.

 

[Aaron2]

He argues that with such a small group they 'need' to dual or multi class just to have all there basses covered.

He's right. Multiclassing is one way to get around the problems of a small group (the other, of course, is leadership). Just remove the 20th level limit. I just don't see what the big deal is, its not like its a real rule anyway. I can give you XP charts all the way up to 100th level.


Aaron

 

[Christian]

It is true that multi-classed characters of the kind x/x ,especialy magic users/ non magic users, are 1 -2 El lower in power then a straight character. (of course YMMV)

Usually, yes. Level range matters, too. A Wiz10/Sor10 is pathetically underpowered for a 20th level character; but a Wiz1/Sor1 is a perfectly good 2nd level character. But the problems are definitely less when the levels are uneven-a Wiz19/Sor1 is a perfectly OK 20th level character. (That's why the multiclass XP penalties work the way they do.)

You don't necessarily need to min/max to make a good multiclass character, but it helps to find synergies. Eg. Rog3/MnkX is easily a match for a typical X+3 level character. And Rgr1/FtrX or Rgr1/RogX works great ...

The CR systems presuppose that the player isn't making badly suboptimal character design decisions. This applies to single-class characters as well as multiclass characters; a wizard with nothing but utility spells might be less of a challenge than one with offensive and defensive spells in his repertoire. It's just harder to make a good multi-class character ...

 

[Conaill]

He argues that with such a small group they 'need' to dual or multi class just to have all there basses covered.

Nope. With two players, I think you could have a fairly complete party with one Cleric and one Rogue. The Cleric class is versatile enough to cover many essential roles: melee fighter, healer, spellcaster, etc. The Rogue does all the sneaky stuff, ranged combat, makes a decent backup melee fighter, and can even use magic through UMD.

Heck, with the right domains, a single Cleric could make for a good "party".

I think I'm gona change the rules to allow a dual or multiclass character to advance like in earlier D&D versions, but limit the hp and stuff. Each lvl will max at 20, till I get the Epic Level handbook.

I would strongly suggest you don't cave in to him. If he really thinks single-classed PC's are more powerful, let him play one! Reworking the 3E rules to use 2E dual/multiclassing would be a huge mess.

 

[Destil]

Uhm, you're not worse when you're a 10/10 Fighter Mage. You're less specialized You're more usefull in a wide varity of roles, but less powerfull in each roll.

Since D&D is (typicaly) about teamwork and not PvP, having a less specialized PC is not a bad thing. It's just diffrent.

 

[KoboldTerror]

Remember neither I nor he has the Epic Level book so we are not sure what is in it, or how it works.

He's just a powermonger when playing, that is why he's so upset about the multiclass being less powerfull than it used to be.

I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. I got another day so I'll come up with something. I'll keep you informed.