Dual and Multiclass Level cap problems.

[Dr_Rictus]

Sure! Just, whatever you do, keep in mind that he's flat-out wrong.

Seriously, it's been played extensively by some of the best, and while it's possible to shoot yourself in the foot with unwise character creation (either with or without multiclassing), multiclassing in and of itself does not imply any significant sacrifice in a character's viability. In fact, in some cases, it's a key component of an optimized character (the well-constructed fighter/rogue is a good example in my book).

Yoy might also consider that if he's interested in playing a fighter/sorcerer, as you cite in an example, that certain strategies might be needed at high level. Yes, this particular multiclass combination can be difficult -- that's not really a problem with multiclassing in general, in my view.

I find that the spellsword prestige class (Tome and Blood) is a good option for this character concept. If you don't have the book, encourage him to check it out, or look at it with him at your friendly local game store before you make a purchase decision (which you wouldn't necessarily need to make until he reached mid-level anyway). I don't want to make it sound like you need supplements to play a decent multiclass character in general (you don't), but running a 2-person party can be a challenge and having more resources at your disposal could be helpful.

One of the good things (and they are certainly not an unalloyed good) about prestige classes in general is that they provide a mechanism for encouraging multiclass combinations are interesting but that might otherwise be unattractive. In addition to the ones mentioned, there's the Rage Mage (from Dragon magazine originally -- was it reprinted in Masters of the Wild?). Good for barbarian/sorcerers.

 

[Storm Raven]

Yeah thats his major argument. a 10/10 fighter/sorcerer would get killed by the same things a level 20 fighter or a level 20 sorcerer would waste.

He wants to have the same split that earlier D&D editions had.

So, he wants to have the new rules replicate one of the major power gaming loopholes of the old rules. Or, in other words, he's a power hungry munchkin.

You are better off without him. Tell him so.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Good point. I would be remiss if I didn't say that having "the same split as earlier D&D editions had" is the last thing you should consider. You absolutely should not do this. It would be a big mistake. It is the wrong thing to do.

I'm not going to suggest, as others have, that you tell him it's "my way or the highway." The fact that you're running a 2-person party suggests to me that you cannot afford to turn away players so easily. At the same time, you must make him understand that it is unfair of him to use that fact to hold your game hostage to his demands for rules changes. That does mean that you must be ready to walk away if he proves intractible, while trying to keep it from coming to that.

You should attempt to address his concerns out of respect for his needs as a player, but if he is to respect your needs as a DM (and he does want you to do your job, doesn't he?) he must realize that yours is the final judgement when it comes to rules decisions.

 

[Conaill]

Here's a compromise: Tell your players that at every level-up they are allowed to add a level in *two* different classes. That should make the munchkin happy.

Of course, you also have to make sure to award XP at half the normal rate

 

[smetzger]

The multiclass rules for 3e are one of the best features of the new game. Don't throw them out until you try them.

 

[apsuman]

can't you just have him hire a few npcs before the next adventure?

A barbarian and a cleric for example. That way he can round out the party any way he wants to.

Check out the characters in the Rogue's Gallery.

The thing with 1e multiclasses was that a fighter 10/magic user 10 was (other than HP) was just as good as a level 10 fighter *AND* just as good as a level 10 magic user at the cost of adventuring with someone that was only two level higher.

3E does not have that (thankfully).

g!

 

[Oni]

Remember neither I nor he has the Epic Level book so we are not sure what is in it, or how it works.

He's just a powermonger when playing, that is why he's so upset about the multiclass being less powerfull than it used to be.

I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. I got another day so I'll come up with something. I'll keep you informed.

I would stick to your guns, it will save you a lot of grief later if this person is the sort of player they sound like they are from your description. Tell him yes, the multiclassing system in 3e isn't as powerful as it was in 2nd ed., but that is a good thing because now it balanced with the rest of the game system, it was broken before and is something that they fixed with the new edition. Ask him if he would really prefer to play an overpowered character (and be sure to say overpowered and broken, he'll think more about his answer)[welcome to debating with Oni 101]. Remind him also that the challenges set before them are only so great as you deem necessary and that making a more powerful character will only result in harder challenges, that it is simply a matter of scale. Of course don't be nasty about this, but be firm, don't threaten, state. You just have to put him in the position where choosing your point of view is his best choice. Ultimately he doesn't sound like a very enjoyable person to game with, but I suppose you have to work with what you have.

 

[Aaron2]

Remember neither I nor he has the Epic Level book so we are not sure what is in it, or how it works.

OK, this thread is getting weird. If you don't have the Epic book, then you have no choice but to use the normal, unmodified, PHB rules for post-20 play. This, apparently, is -exactly- what your players is asking for.

You have 20 levels to:

a) buy the Epic book and convince your players to use those rules
b) have him (or you) make up your own post-20 rules
c) continue to use the PHB rules as-is.

Why do you insist that he agree to use rules that neither you nor he have even seen yet?


Aaron

 

[KoboldTerror]

I dont insist that we use rules we havent seen yet. I havent insisted that we do anything yet.

 

[green slime]

Its just gut reaction to 3e, coming from a 1e/2e environment.

Once it settles in, and the salve works its way through the tough epidermis of the "Veteran", it will be appreciated for what it is. Where players are allowed to munchkin, because they are expected to.

No more parties consisiting entirely of elves wandering the countryside.

I'm with Dr Rictus.