D&D General Dual-Wielding and The Ranger, Part 2: On the Unappreciated Genius of Zeb

[Snarf Zagyg]

Thanks. I think one reason I was pleased is that we could now work out what a Dex of 19 gave us in 1e that an 18 didn't.

Is that memory accurate?

Yes. Deities and Demigods explicitly opened up all abilities to greater than 18 in AD&D (note that the DMG did give a kinda sorta preview with strength and the girdle of giant strength) by providing the 19-25 tables for abilities.

That said, the 19 = ambidextrous (or TWF without penalty) had to be inferred from the rules as I don't recall it being explicitly stated, but was instead within the text of Mooglum and Mouser.

 

[Arial Black]

Yes. Deities and Demigods explicitly opened up all abilities to greater than 18 in AD&D (note that the DMG did give a kinda sorta preview with strength and the girdle of giant strength) by providing the 19-25 tables for abilities.

That said, the 19 = ambidextrous (or TWF without penalty) had to be inferred from the rules as I don't recall it being explicitly stated, but was instead within the text of Mooglum and Mouser.

Unfortunately, we couldn't infer how multi-classing works by looking at Elric's stat-block. : )

I'll be pleased if I get this spot-on after 40 years, but IIRC Elric was Fighter 13/Assassin 10/Magic-User 17. Is that right?

Also, how did Stormbringer work? Was it a +5 two-handed sword that drained 1d100 HD/levels on a hit, gave the hit points to Elric (glutted was a thing), at set Elric's Str and Con to 15?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Nothing's spelled out about him having any special talents, but he's given the same 19 Dexterity as the Mouser, so ...

D&DG extends all 6 core stats all the way to 25. I assume this is basically an emulation of how STR had already been canonicalized as ranging (at least) as high as 25 being "Titan Strength". So, once this book was released it was at least technically possible to know what the effects of these extreme stats would be. A few PCs could technically get to 19 here and there where that was a racial maximum and you got an ability score bonus. It is super rare to achieve of course. Note that only STR has ever canonically had a % system, although I think there might be a few scattered references to an 18/NN% for some other stat, but probably only in places like Dragon where it is not exactly 'official'.

Godlike beings also have extended abilities ranging from extreme negative number (-15 IIRC) up to 30, but outside the 0-25 range the effects become really extreme.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Unfortunately, we couldn't infer how multi-classing works by looking at Elric's stat-block. : )

I'll be pleased if I get this spot-on after 40 years, but IIRC Elric was Fighter 13/Assassin 10/Magic-User 17. Is that right?

Also, how did Stormbringer work? Was it a +5 two-handed sword that drained 1d100 HD/levels on a hit, gave the hit points to Elric (glutted was a thing), at set Elric's Str and Con to 15?

I don't recall it being quite that crazy powerful. It is definitely an artifact-grade sword which some sort of level draining and other abilities. Not something you would want to be cut with...

 

[billd91]

Unfortunately, we couldn't infer how multi-classing works by looking at Elric's stat-block. : )

I'll be pleased if I get this spot-on after 40 years, but IIRC Elric was Fighter 13/Assassin 10/Magic-User 17. Is that right?

Also, how did Stormbringer work? Was it a +5 two-handed sword that drained 1d100 HD/levels on a hit, gave the hit points to Elric (glutted was a thing), at set Elric's Str and Con to 15?

Cleric 10, Druid 5, Fighter 15, MagicUser 19, Illusionist 10, Assassin 10.
His strength and con were 15 because of potions he made, not because of Stormbringer. And Stormbringer would drain half or all of the target's levels on a hit (50% chance of either). For every 2 levels taken, Elric got 5 hp and 1 point of strength (max 23). Stormbringer could drain up to 200 levels before becoming sated. It was pretty harsh.

 

[Voadam]

 

[Ancalagon]

I definitely concur with your analysis.

... one thing that bothers me though, is that, in the real world, wielding two weapons doesn't make you attack twice as fast! That's not why people wielded two weapons.

I think warhammer frpg (2nd ed) did it much more realistically - the primary purpose of the 2nd weapon was defensive.

But this doesn't surprise me. A lot of combat features were not realistic. For example, a bastard sword did more damage (yes) but was slower (bigger initiative penalty) in 2nd ed. But I can tell you, wielding a sword 2 handed makes it faster, not slower!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I definitely concur with your analysis.

... one thing that bothers me though, is that, in the real world, wielding two weapons doesn't make you attack twice as fast! That's not why people wielded two weapons.

I think warhammer frpg (2nd ed) did it much more realistically - the primary purpose of the 2nd weapon was defensive.

But this doesn't surprise me. A lot of combat features were not realistic. For example, a bastard sword did more damage (yes) but was slower (bigger initiative penalty) in 2nd ed. But I can tell you, wielding a sword 2 handed makes it faster, not slower!

Wielding two weapons in AD&D doesn't double your attack rate. It bumps you up into a higher attacks per round. Its a bit unclear how this works for non-fighters, 2e clarifies this.

I'd note that, 4e, by default, went with the defensive advantage. You could layer on some feats to improve that, but the only way to get multiple attacks was to use a power which allowed that. Otherwise TWF and TWD would let you do 2 extra damage on attacks and get a shield bonus on defense.

 

[Alzrius]

Also, how did Stormbringer work? Was it a +5 two-handed sword that drained 1d100 HD/levels on a hit, gave the hit points to Elric (glutted was a thing), at set Elric's Str and Con to 15?

I know this isn't exactly what you were asking, but in Dragon Lords of Melniboné - which was the d20 version of the Stormbringer RPG - Stormbringer does 1d100 points of Constitution drain to its victims (with an opposed Will save against the sword to negate the Con loss). Now that's one scary sword!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Wielding two weapons in AD&D doesn't double your attack rate. It bumps you up into a higher attacks per round. Its a bit unclear how this works for non-fighters, 2e clarifies this.

Two-weapon fighting in AD&D does, in fact, double your attack rate. Both from DMG p. 70, as well as Dragon Magazine in 1982 (Roger Moore article).

2e's clarification isn't a clarification, it's a modification of the original rule.