D&D 5E (2024) Dual Wielding

[fluffybunbunkittens]

How do you get Vex on a Greatsword Fighter?

It's called Topple.

 

[ECMO3]

It's called Topple.

You can't get topple with a Greatsword. As far as weapons that work with GWM you can get it on a Maul or Lance.

However Topple is not the statistical equivalent of Vex in terms of damage. Vex causes advantage on the next attack period, with no save, topple gives a save to avoid being prone and thereby avoid the advantage to the attacker.

 

[Mistwell]

D4 Deep Dive was doing a, well, deep dive on two weapon fighting vs big one handed weapon fighting and found two weapon fighting does more damage per round up to level 11 than big one handed weapon fighting. Most of this was centered on the Nick property leaving your bonus action. With Nick, you can Attack with a Light Nick weapon, use Nick to attack with a second Light weapon, then use Dual Wielder Feat to get a Bonus Action Attack. This is all done with '1' attack. If you are level 5 and get an Extra Attack from your Class, you then would have 4 attacks during the turn. At level 11 the Fighter can get a second Extra Attack giving them 5 attacks. I guess you can do this with one or both being thrown weapons too, for range.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

And Fighter Action Surge is still tons better for GWM, while just feeling like you're missing out on stuff for TWF.

 

[ECMO3]

And Fighter Action Surge is still tons better for GWM, while just feeling like you're missing out on stuff for TWF.

Not really when you consider the new weapon switching rules. You can dual wield and still use a heavy weapon with action surge and after 6th level you can even use GWM with action surge in addition to getting your 4 attacks with light weapons .... and a Fighter has the masteries to use all of it:

5th level:

3xshortsword(Vex)+1xScimitar(Nick)+2xMaul(topple)+24 strength

vs

4xMaul(topple)+16 strength+12GMW

6th level:
3xshortsword(Vex)+1xScimitar(Nick)+2xMaul(topple)+24 strength+6GWM

vs

4xMaul(topple)+20 strength+12GMW



This assumes starting with a 17 Strength 2nd guy taking an ASI to get 20 at level 6.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not really when you consider the new weapon switching rules. You can dual wield and still use a heavy weapon with action surge and after 6th level you can even use GWM with action surge in addition to getting your 4 attacks with light weapons .... and a Fighter has the masteries to use all of it:

5th level:

3xshortsword(Vex)+1xScimitar(Nick)+2xMaul(topple)+24 strength

vs

4xMaul(topple)+16 strength+12GMW

6th level:
3xshortsword(Vex)+1xScimitar(Nick)+2xMaul(topple)+24 strength+6GWM

vs

4xMaul(topple)+20 strength+12GMW



This assumes starting with a 17 Strength 2nd guy taking an ASI to get 20 at level 6.

Turn 1. Draw greatsword attack. Turn 2 attack with greatsword stow. End of turn?

Turn 2. See next sequence.

Turn 1. Greatsword is already drawn. Attack. Stow greatsword. Draw two light weapons. Attack with 1. Attack with the other due to nick. Bonus action attack with either.

Turn 2. Attack with 1 of your 2 already drew 2 light weapons. Attack with other due to nick. Stow them both. Draw great sword. Attack with great sword. End of turn.

I’m not seeing the sequence you are describing?

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I’m not seeing the sequence you are describing?

Action Surge. So it can be...
t1: 4 x TWF attack + 2 x Action Surge greatweapon attack
t2: greatweapon attack stow OR free object interaction stow, TWF as usual for the rest of the combat

While I like weapon-juggling, and this is indeed a good way to optimize the Action Surge, this just feels wrong if your concept is a dual-wielder. Dammit, Wizards.

Now, as usual, the main thing discouraging this in later levels is if your TWF weapon has more plusses than whatever hand-me-down greatweapon the party has available.

 

[ECMO3]

Turn 1. Draw greatsword attack. Turn 2 attack with greatsword stow. End of turn?

Turn 2. See next sequence.

Turn 1. Greatsword is already drawn. Attack. Stow greatsword. Draw two light weapons. Attack with 1. Attack with the other due to nick. Bonus action attack with either.

Turn 2. Attack with 1 of your 2 already drew 2 light weapons. Attack with other due to nick. Stow them both. Draw great sword. Attack with great sword. End of turn.

I’m not seeing the sequence you are describing?

It doesn't matter, you get one free interaction plus you can draw or stow a weapon with every attack you take as part of the attack action.

For example - worst case starting empty handed:

draw shortswort-attack, draw simitar-attack(nick), attack-shortsword stow scimitar, bonus action attack shortsword free interact stow short sword, action surge attack draw Maul-attack, Maul-attack (can now draw another weapon or stow your maul or just keep the maul only in hand)

This is the worst case scenario, starting with nothing in hand.

If you start with a weaopon in your hand (any weapon you are going to use) it is one less interaction.

 

[Pauln6]

It doesn't matter, you get one free interaction plus you can draw or stow a weapon with every attack you take as part of the attack action.

For example - worst case starting empty handed:

draw shortswort-attack, draw simitar-attack(nick), attack-shortsword stow scimitar, bonus action attack shortsword free interact stow short sword, action surge attack draw Maul-attack, Maul-attack (can now draw another weapon or stow your maul or just keep the maul only in hand)

This is the worst case scenario, starting with nothing in hand.

If you start with a weaopon in your hand (any weapon you are going to use) it is one less interaction.

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of this level of juggling but I'm struggling to find a compromise.

Allowing one free draw at the start of your turn would still be better than 2014 but then you still need to specify the ability to draw for every attack with the thrown property.

If you then allow dropping for free and drawing/stowing/picking up as an object interaction, it allows some swapping during your turn but not crazy levels on multiple attacks (you basically get one option to swap or two with the dual wielding feat).

I'd prefer it if it was possible to swap weapon properties on a weapon you are wielding at lower levels instead. They went out of their way to limit that. If that's so terrible, the property juggling must be as bad and far cheesier.

I would probably adjust the old weapon mastery feat (whatever it is now called) to give it some benefits to characters already trained in martial weapons, such as:

- If you have the weapon mastery class feature, choose one weapon with which you have weapon mastery. You may choose an additional weapon mastery property applicable for that weapon. You can decide which property to apply to attacks with that weapon at the start of your turn.

- If you are fighting with the same type of weapon in each hand, you can choose different properties for each hand.

- If you know multiple weapon masteries for a weapon you are wielding, you can change properties as a bonus action during your turn unless you already have a class feature that allows you to swap features in a different way.

Or something like that.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I think I'm going to design a monster, some kind of fey probably, who literally juggles a bunch of different weapons that all have different special attacks, and then on it's turn it makes 3-4 quick attacks with random weapons without interrupting the performance.