D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[ECMO3]

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of this level of juggling but I'm struggling to find a compromise.

Allowing one free draw at the start of your turn would still be better than 2014 but then you still need to specify the ability to draw for every attack with the thrown property.

If you then allow dropping for free and drawing/stowing/picking up as an object interaction, it allows some swapping during your turn but not crazy levels on multiple attacks (you basically get one option to swap or two with the dual wielding feat).

I'd prefer it if it was possible to swap weapon properties on a weapon you are wielding at lower levels instead. They went out of their way to limit that. If that's so terrible, the property juggling must be as bad and far cheesier.

I would probably adjust the old weapon mastery feat (whatever it is now called) to give it some benefits to characters already trained in martial weapons, such as:

- If you have the weapon mastery class feature, choose one weapon with which you have weapon mastery. You may choose an additional weapon mastery property applicable for that weapon. You can decide which property to apply to attacks with that weapon at the start of your turn.

- If you are fighting with the same type of weapon in each hand, you can choose different properties for each hand.

- If you know multiple weapon masteries for a weapon you are wielding, you can change properties as a bonus action during your turn unless you already have a class feature that allows you to swap features in a different way.

Or something like that.

I am not a fan of the rules, just complication for no reason. TBH I think drawing and stowing weapons should be part of the attack and ignored.

The old 5E rules were far simpler (and far more restrictive) and people screwed those up all the time.

 

[Pauln6]

I am not a fan of the rules, just complication for no reason. TBH I think drawing and stowing weapons should be part of the attack and ignored.

The old 5E rules were far simpler (and far more restrictive) and people screwed those up all the time.

I think my issue is that when I play, I think cinematically, so anything that would look really dumb on screen is unappealing to me. Using different masteries on the same weapon is cool, retrieving fallen weapons is cool, drawing a smaller weapon when being grappled is cool. The level of weapon juggling to take advantage of different mechanical effects just looks clunky in my mind's eye, especially is used on rinse and repeat.

If swapping weapon masteries on a single weapon is so useful that it must be limited until fighters reach much higher levels, I can't see why weapon juggling for any class with mastery is acceptable?

 

[Mistwell]

I again think people are missing the key element of two-weapon fighting, but you guys tell me if I am getting this wrong. At 5th level when you get a second attack as (for example) a fighter, you're attacking FOUR TIMES, and that's without action surge. This is from the combo of: fighting style, nick property, and two weapon fighting feat.

1. Attack with a light weapon. This gets your normal Ability score mod to damage.
2. Attack with nick, other light weapon, as part of attack action due to feat. Ability score mod to damage due to fighting style.
3. 2nd attack with light weapon, due to 5th level extra attack ability. This gets your normal Ability score mod to damage.
4. Bonus action attack with with dual-wielder feat (note: this language is not a replacement for the light property attack as written - clarified by Crawford). This gets your ability score mod to damage due to fighting style, and can be with a non-light weapon provided it lacks the two-weapon property. Thanks to weapon swapping, you can now stow and draw one of your light weapons to make this happen.

Here are all the relevant rules:

Fighting Style: Two-Weapon Fighting: When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage.

Weapon Property, Light: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.

Weapon Mastery, Nick: When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Dual Wielder feat: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.

I've left out of this other weapon properties but they can still apply. For example, think this is right (again tell me where I am wrong):

Lvl 5 Fighter with two weapon fighting, dual wielder feat, and 2 light weapons one vex (hand axe), one nick (scimitar?).

-Fighter uses attack action with main hand, triggering vex and nick. Offhand nick weapon attacks at advantage. Extra attack with mainhand after nick weapon attack, triggering vex again.

-Since I used the attack action I can still use bonus action to attack so now I get advantage again because vex is not once per turn like nick is

-End State: 2 main hand attacks, 2 offhand attacks at advantage. All with bonus damage from two weapon fighting.

As for Dual Wielder Feat working independent of Nick in this way granting a bonus action attack separately apparently Monte from Dungeon Dudes spoke with Jeremy Crawford at GenCon about this interaction and got verification it is intended to work this way. Here is a video covering why you get 4 attacks at level 5:


I do think, if this is right, that dual weapons outperforms single weapons up to around level 10 or 11, except when considering burst damage from limited resources.

 

[billd91]

Dual Wielder feat: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.

Yeah, the wording of the dual wielder feat seem to be a notable problem. It was a lot simpler in 2014 and wouldn't have screwed with the Nick property as written as far as I could tell. If they intended to add a fourth attack for characters dual wielding with the feat and a nick weapon - that may be one thing. But I have a hard time imagining that was the intent without more evidence since 4 attacks at 5th level is... substantial.
But if they aren't intending a potential 4th attack... why even screw with the wording of the feat as much as they did?

 

[Mistwell]

Yeah, the wording of the dual wielder feat seem to be a notable problem. It was a lot simpler in 2014 and wouldn't have screwed with the Nick property as written as far as I could tell. If they intended to add a fourth attack for characters dual wielding with the feat and a nick weapon - that may be one thing. But I have a hard time imagining that was the intent without more evidence since 4 attacks at 5th level is... substantial.
But if they aren't intending a potential 4th attack... why even screw with the wording of the feat as much as they did?

I guess Crawford was asked at GenCon in front of a crowd and answered that is how it was intended to work with four attacks with that build.

Mind you, the four attacks are with "weaker" weapons than you can get from two handed fighting or sword and board fighting. I think it's just there to compete with the two-handed fighting style now. The burst damage for single-handed fighting I think still outperforms the two-weapon fighting done this way, but the all-day damage from two-weapon fighting seems to outperform the all-day damage from single-handed fighting for at least half the levels.

And if that's the case, I like that balance. Barbarians and Paladins with a single weapon can outperform damage-wise with bursts of limited use abilities and some resting recharges. The fighter (and I think Ranger) can sustain good damage with two weapons without resting. The later two can now also make good use of thrown weapons.

Here is a screen-shot summary of the rules (just didn't want to much-up the prior post):

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I have a hard time imagining that was the intent without more evidence since 4 attacks at 5th level is... substantial.

Polearm Master has gotten 4 attacks on many turns for 10 years now.

Dual-Wielder is unique only in how convoluted they made it.

 

[Pauln6]

I guess Crawford was asked at GenCon in front of a crowd and answered that is how it was intended to work with four attacks with that build.

Mind you, the four attacks are with "weaker" weapons than you can get from two handed fighting or sword and board fighting. I think it's just there to compete with the two-handed fighting style now. The burst damage for single-handed fighting I think still outperforms the two-weapon fighting done this way, but the all-day damage from two-weapon fighting seems to outperform the all-day damage from single-handed fighting for at least half the levels.

And if that's the case, I like that balance. Barbarians and Paladins with a single weapon can outperform damage-wise with bursts of limited use abilities and some resting recharges. The fighter (and I think Ranger) can sustain good damage with two weapons without resting. The later two can now also make good use of thrown weapons.

Here is a screen-shot summary of the rules (just didn't want to much-up the prior post):

Yes I agree, the intent is to make fighting with lower damage light weapons competitive for someone who isn't a rogue. I'm happy with the two weapon fighting rules. The only thing I think they could do otherwise to rebalnce it at higher levels is to allow a fighter with 3+ attacks to attack twice with the same weapon using their bonus action.

My issue is more with weapon juggling within the two weapon fighting rules.

 

[MarkB]

All this drawing-and-stowing as part of attacks just feels unhygienic to me.

Player: I draw my sword and prepare to charge into combat.

DM: Okay, make a strength check.

Player: Huh?

DM: You were swapping between your swords every round last combat, and you landed multiple hits with both of them. Your scabbards are overflowing with blood and viscera, and by now it's congealed. It'll take some work to draw them again, and they're liable to start rusting.

 

[Pauln6]

All this drawing-and-stowing as part of attacks just feels unhygienic to me.

Player: I draw my sword and prepare to charge into combat.

DM: Okay, make a strength check.

Player: Huh?

DM: You were swapping between your swords every round last combat, and you landed multiple hits with both of them. Your scabbards are overflowing with blood and viscera, and by now it's congealed. It'll take some work to draw them again, and they're liable to start rusting.

I do think that there should be qualitative differences between dropping, drawing, and stowing. The former is really easy, and the latter is far more difficult. Even just sheathing a dagger or tucking an axe in a belt is tricky when one is dodging and weaving in melee and stowing a bow is a nightmare that would definitely leave you vulnerable.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Bonus action: Scimitar (1d6 dmg) (or 1d6+MOD damage with the TWF fighting style

Even better: since the nick attack is part of the attack action, the nick attack itself qualifies as the triggering action for the dual wielder feat. So you can actually attack with the short sword again, with vex mastery. So if you hit, you start your next turn with advantage.