D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[Pauln6]

I think I would prefer to let people drop a weapon for free but I would not let them treat picking it up as 'drawing' a weapon as part of the attack. They would need to use their object interaction for that. You can only draw OR stow a weapon that's in your possession. I don't know much difference that would make for the cheese (no swapping hands, Isuppose) but to be fair, if you drop your weapon, my monster is either picking it up or kicking it away as their free object interaction so it's a moot point.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I agree, giving 3 attacks at level 1 would be broken. Is it still over-powered if if you ignore nick though and just wield two non-light weapons? You would be increasing your damage by 2 points if wielding two rapiers or two longswords and you still have to use your bonus action to get your second attack.

I noticed that A5E allows anyone to wield a non-light weapon in one hand already, instead specifying which weapons can be used in the off-hand with the 'dual wield ' property.

An origin feat that allowed you to wield two non-light weapons, getting 2d8+6 likely wouldn't be broken. It would raise the power level of the style to be solidly above GW users.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Did they though? I don’t know, I can’t imagine myself ever telling a player “sorry, you already opened one door this turn, you can’t open another.” The idea that interacting with the environment needs a special category within the action economy instead of just being something that happens incidentally as part of your normal movement and actions during your turn has always seemed pretty silly to me. I imagine this “free object interaction” will continue being completely handwaved away, just as it has been for the past decade.

I mean, I can imagine it, because the doors and such move beyond just incidental contact. Throwing a lever to drop a portcullis on a giant's head might be a free interaction, but I don't want you to run to a door, open it, close it, run to the next door, open it, close it, and then throw the lever.

Might allow you to shoulder charge doors open if you want to rush, seems like a good thing for athletics.

 

[Dausuul]

First off, just to add information to the mix, Dual-Wielder Feat and Two-Weapon fighting allowing 4 attacks with Nick, all using mod, is one of the intended results of the feat, per Crawford by way of Treantmonk's friend

Post from Treantmonk's Temple

Update on today's video: Someone I know asked Jeremy Crawford about Dual Wielder at Gencon, and here's how it works: It provides a single bonus action attack...

www.youtube.com

Looking at numbers, with no current access to a full book.

At level 5 -
Maul and GWM --> 2(2d6+4+3) or 4d6+14 or 28 damage with a single feat. If you drop or crit, you can bonus action for another 2d6+4 getting a "spike" of 39 damage.

Shortswords and DW --> 4(1d6+4) or 4d6+16 or 30 damage with a single feat. No real way to get more, and your bonus action isn't free.

Polearm+PAM+GWM --> 2(1d10+7)+1d4+4 gives us 24.5 per strict RAW, with a reliable reaction attack for 1d10+4 and a spike boost of 1d10+4. So a fairly reliable 34 with a high end of 43.5

Shortsword + Rapier + DW --> 2d8+1d6+12 or 24.5

So, I think it is fair to say that DW + Nick giving 4 attacks is pretty strong, with the two major styles of GWM keeping up, with the Rapier/Shortsword is falling behind without accounting for accuracy (it is possible that Vex makes a difference). Not bad overall.

Vex makes a very substantial difference, and significantly complicates the math.

Assuming 5th level, Dual Wielder feat, Two-Weapon Fighting Style, 18 Dex, access to all relevant masteries, and an enemy with AC 15 (that is, a 65% chance to hit):

Two short swords: 19.2 damage over the first three rounds. (Three attacks per round, with Vex.)
Rapier and short sword: 21.0 damage over the first three rounds. (Three attacks per round, with Vex.)
Two scimitars: 20.2 damage over the first three rounds. (Four attacks per round, without Vex.)
Scimitar and short sword: 23.9 damage over the first three rounds. (Four attacks per round, three with Vex. This assumes you only need Nick on one of your weapons to get the benefit, which fits a literal reading of the current rules, but may not be the intent.)

Meanwhile, the greatsword fighter using Great Weapon Master and the Great Weapon Fighting Style, with Vex:

Greatsword: 25.3 damage over the first three rounds.

Of course, this presumes a single powerful foe; the benefit of Vex declines each time you drop an enemy. Still, the difference is notable -- especially when you consider that the greatsword fighter gets to keep their bonus action free, and they get the option for a bonus action attack every time they crit or drop a foe, and they only need one weapon mastery to make it work, and they don't need to make sure they always have a Nick weapon in one hand and a Vex in the other.

Conclusion: Dual wielding remains an inferior option, while also being vastly more complicated than the 2014 version and relying on careful parsing of five different rules (Light property, Nick mastery, Vex mastery, Dual Wielder feat, Two-Weapon Fighting style). Sigh.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Conclusion: Dual wielding remains an inferior option, while also being vastly more complicated than the 2014 version and relying on careful parsing of five different rules (Light property, Nick mastery, Vex mastery, Dual Wielder feat, Two-Weapon Fighting style). Sigh.

And requires two magic weapons (or three if you want to maximize Dual-Wielder's attack).

And then GWM has the ability to go for PAM as well, which gets them to bonus action attack + reaction attack anyway.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Does it apply to all damage?
I.e. smite, hunter's mark, Divine favor

Otherwise 2d6 turns from 7 to 8 damage. So +1 damage in the best case.
Might as well take the +1 AC if that's all.

If you only attack once, topple won't add any damage.

Assuming 2 attacks, and 50% chance to hit / save.

Base
(2d6+4) * .5 = 5.5
*2 = 11

Graze
2d6 * 50% + 4 = 7.5
*2 = 15

Topple
1st attack: 5.5
(50% + 75%) / 2 = 0.625
2nd attack: (2d6+4) * 0.625 = 6.875
= 12.375

So Graze does more damage.
Though obviously Topple has other benefits.

Ok. Good catch. So a paladin with smites gets some milage out of it. So does a battlemaster or a berserker barbarian. At that point, the fighting style stops being terribe.

 

[ECMO3]

Meanwhile, the greatsword fighter using Great Weapon Master and the Great Weapon Fighting Style, with Vex:

Greatsword: 25.3 damage over the first three rounds.

Of course, this presumes a single powerful foe; the benefit of Vex declines each time you drop an enemy. Still, the difference is notable -- especially when you consider that the greatsword fighter gets to keep their bonus action free, and they get the option for a bonus action attack every time they crit or drop a foe, and they only need one weapon mastery to make it work, and they don't need to make sure they always have a Nick weapon in one hand and a Vex in the other.

How do you get Vex on a Greatsword Fighter?

 

[ECMO3]

And requires two magic weapons (or three if you want to maximize Dual-Wielder's attack).

It does not require magic weapons you can do it with non-magic weapons and from what I have read there is no more "resistant to nonmagical PBS". All PBS resistance is going to be treated the same in the new MM so there will be no difference between magical and non-magical damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

How do you get Vex on a Greatsword Fighter?

Right, but graze is probably better than vex for greatsword.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

It does not require magic weapons

It sure is a lot easier if you only need to find one thing with plusses on it.